BIKES!

[Darell]

Like JTR says, there is NO reason for tread on narrow road tires. Very few makers leave it off completely. Some put it on just for "style." But in all cases, it is completely silly to have tread.

I'd love to hear the logic from anybody who says otherwise.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by jtr1962

It Besides having no tread

They might not have "tread" but tell me what the silly stuff along the sides is??

[manoloco]

Originally Posted by Darell

They might not have "tread" but tell me what the silly stuff along the sides is??

it makes them lighter

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by Darell

They might not have "tread" but tell me what the silly stuff along the sides is??

Decorative perhaps? In a way I'm glad it's there or I might end up getting ticketed by a cop for riding on "bald" tires. At least where it counts there's no tread.

[Brian McBlain]

I like the lightening and decorative reasons, but the pattern seems to be where I would expect some flex in a tire whether pneumatic or not. So maybe they allow a stiffer tread and sidewall near the rim for better rolling resistance and adhesion while allowing better ride than if they were not present. The sinuous wave pattern won't accordion like concentric rings would but would compress progressively. Without some give, these tire's ride would be so poorly that they may as well be solid rubber like the ones on the 1898 velocipede in our local museum. Just a guess.

Having ridden tubulars with lots of flats back in college, I sympathize. But these are way too skinny for me these days. My errand/commuter bike has 700-35 Marathon Commuters to handle the 200 pounds of rider and another 50-100 pounds of payload. These have angled siping, I suppose to make people think they shed water better, but are mostly smooth. The Kevlar puncture resistance is working so far and the wheel change from 27" makes them feel only a little heavier. The 28 mm Panaracers on the light touring bike lose their 'tread' in few hundred miles and the associated whisper that emulates an approaching car's tires, thank goodness. Compared to the non-Kevlar predecessors, I am having a lot better puncture luck with them too. In fact, my number one reason to replace a tube over the last two years is a broken valve.

[manoloco]

Now the bike is 9 speed double

Man this costed me a bit more than half than what the bike previously costed but is definitely worth it (105 shifters, chain and rear derailleur, new cables too), i took the opportunity to learn to install and calibrate many things in the bike while doing this (had to buy a chain tool), also cleaned the transmission a bit and lubricated the chain:








still, at $3.50/$4.50 a gallon of fuel (gasoline in Peru is very expensive), might save a bit starting July, but the true savings is not using fossil fuel for the commute and helping a bit to get in shape.

[Brian McBlain]

Did you have to widen the rear stays to fit the 9 speed wheel?

I had to widen the 126.5 mm rear to 130 on the Schwinn to go to nine. With lighter stays you can spring them that much for a fit, but the Schwinn's were a drag-down wrestling match each time, so I cold set them. The 6 speed Shimano rear changer handled an 11-34 9 speed like it was made for it, so I saved a replacement's cost there, and the 6-8 speed chain even works without needing to be replaced (almost new) before it is worn out.

I don't have anything within errand/commutting distance that qualifies as a big hill. Nothing with hundreds of feet of climb, so I found that the 2 x 7 which had 9 different ratios was enough. I changed out the front big chainwheel for a chain guard and made a 1 X 9 with better spaced ratios and one lever shifting. One-by-Nine is just fine! The errand bike needs both hands as much as possible when fully loaded. Top ratio is used with wind and grade in my favor, and the lowest with wind and grade against me and a big load (I mean OTHER than my butt) aboard.

I have the reflective side walls on my errand bike too. A lot better than the reflectors on the spokes which can be lost behind panniers and legs. The laws in the US for bikes vary state to state and even in some cities. Front and rear reflectors, a bell or horn, and a front light at night. Anything less, and even if the motorist is clearly at fault, and you may have provided them with an excuse to get off. I have had too many close calls, so if I'm hit, and it's the motorists fault, I don't want them to wriggle free on a technicality. Some cities require the wheel and pedal reflectors, but the reflective sidewalls can stand in for the spoke reflectors.

I run my lights day or night on the bike and helmet to help drivers see me. Adult cyclists are a rare sight in this town. At night, the lights seem to work well and I get respect. In the day, my name might be Rodney Dangerfield.

My summer cycling jerseys and shorts are brightly colored and almost eye-searing so I am hard to miss. I have a non-cycling lighter colored light rain jacket with white sectors that shows well and is good for early fall and late spring. Winter is a different matter. My heavier clothing is dark, and I am using it during the most overcast and lowest sun angles in the year. So I am thinking reflective orange vest, adding reflective tape, and was told of new electroluminescent clothing that lights up.

Has anyone reading this had to 'up the ante' past daytime bike lights to penetrate the stupor of techzombies (cell phone, laptop, or texting types), those stuffing their faces, doing makeup, reading, driving under the influence of drugs prescription or otherwise, in other words driving while criminally inattentive? I would like gear that works most of the time, as a sleeping driver is impossible to reach visually. I want to know of anything new that has been tested and found favor. I already look over-the-top weird in a helmet (not required by law) with LIGHTS on it, 'fergawdssake'! The price of dignity for a cyclist here appears to be death or maiming by motorist's misadventure and mayhem. (Say that 5 times, fast!)

Staying Alive, On the Road Again (but not bodily), Climbing Every Mountain (well, OK, knoll), Rollin' Down the Highway (shoulder actually), Singing my Song, and Thanking My Lucky Stars, that they Keep On Missing You (and Me),

Sincerely, Brian

[manoloco]

didnt need to widen the stays, the frame is a 1989-90 peugeot "nice"/"triathlon" in that time i guess there were 8 speed sprockets (this is what i was running before), maybe the guy that sold the bike to me widened the stays, but doesnt seem like it, nor would he have needed to do so with the 8 speed cassette that was there before.

about lights, all on my bike is active lighting (front and rear), might be a good idea to add reflective tape somewhere. (also looking for a good price and intl shipping for a planetbike superflash rear light, the pattern and intensity seem to be great).

regarding those distracted motorists specially with cell phones, i just anticipate, brake and let them pass, too dangerous to wait for the last moment to get their attention, i do this both in an intersection or when they are on the same lane, another worry for me is those insecure bastards that when im going faster and pass, i immediately hear the push of the gas pedal and the revs going faster just to pass or catch up with me, i just plainly slow down stop pedaling and cruise, or sometimes when im in the mood to feed their insecurity, i plainly look at the corner see if everything is ok and turn right, to make them think that their opportunity to pass me is gone (and in the process get out of harms way).

This has happened too with other cyclists, specially guys in flashy mountain bikes that doesnt seem to like that a road bike, specially one that looks old like mine goes faster without much effort (they dont seem to grasp the concept that a road bike on a road or cycleway will usually go faster).

Once this guy that was passing everyone in the cycle way, in a non safe way, wanted to overtake me when i passed him, i wouldnt have noticed him at all if it wasnt for an intersection where i always slow down a few meters before then stop and wait for cars to pass, he went right through and was mashing the pedals standing up, he had to brake hard and slightly hit the side of a car that was making a turn, as i passed he just kept looking at me in a not so friendly way.

im all for a little competition on a safe path but that was definitely not it.

[Brian McBlain]

Yeah, the eight speed would be 130 mm already. No issue. I suppose with indexing, the old eight speed changer wouldn't work to shift nine, but maybe there were other issues with it. Shimano isn't as forgiving and adjustable as Campagnolo in such things.

Part of riding safer is learning where drivers are apt to make stupid mistakes and either avoid those parts, pull over and get the car by, or race through before they can get to you. Sometimes thugh you are being careful, they still surprise you with really stupid and unsafe (for you) decisions.

Cyclists riding on the wrong side against me are one of my pet peeves. They are 8 times more likely to be hit by a car than if they rode with traffic and can force the legal cyclist into the side of a parked car or a moving one.

You can only control you. If the other guy wants to be idiotic and suicidal, let him.

[manoloco]

yeah as much as i dont like people doing stupid things and endangering others im just glad that in cases like the one i mentioned, no one got hurt.

i also like to plan ahead new routes, checking stuff with google earth, and not taking new routes at night or in rush hours. When an idea for a new route for going somewhere pops up i prefer safer hours to check them out.

someone did similar mods to a bike like mine and didnt mention any modifications to the frame itself, it seems to be very forgiving and tolerant in that regard:

http://www.fiataccompli.com/bike/200...triathlon.html

i just checked out old Peugeot catalogs and the nice/triathlon frames (not lugged versions but brazed with reynolds 501) used 7 speed freewheel cassettes and are from 1989; the person from the page seems to have misplaced the year and wasnt very sure, but a 2 year difference seems to not be that much.

[Brian McBlain]

Here is a link to a discussion of rear frame spacing:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

So your frame may have 126 ands was widened to 130, or was 130 originally. Doesn't matter, your upgrade was easy.

Having to wait for a cyclist can make people forget common courtesy, the rules of the road, and the safety of the cyclist. You are treated like a traffic cone in construction zones.

I have had too many close calls in spite of being careful. In part, I think it is beacause bikes on the road are so rare here. I was able to confront two drivers in separate incidents of almost being hit. They both said "I didn't see you", in spite of all my lights, as IF it was my fault. I have looked at both bikes in the day and night without my very visible large body on them, and they are hard to miss. Neighbors have commented on how easy it is to see me. I do NOT blend in, rather they are dismissing the cyclist as unimportant. All I can do is add brighter clothes, so that the comment " I didn't see you!" is a completely indisputable confession to dangerous driving.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by Brian McBlain

Part of riding safer is learning where drivers are apt to make stupid mistakes and either avoid those parts, pull over and get the car by, or race through before they can get to you. Sometimes thugh you are being careful, they still surprise you with really stupid and unsafe (for you) decisions.

Absolutely. And I'd like to add for daytime riding, there are few better things you can do than wear bright clothing. I try to wear my dayglow vest over whatever I'm wearing... except on the hot days, of course. But even then, I wear my brightest jerseys when I'm out in traffic. When I'm offroad, nobody will ride with me if I wear bright colors, so I have some muted jerseys as well.

Cyclists riding on the wrong side against me are one of my pet peeves.

Amen, brother! Though this peeve is no pet of mine! I'm in a college down, and I'll often get a wrong-way rider, at night, no lights or reflectors. Scares the living crap out of me. And then there are all the ones who exepct ME to blindly enter the traffic lane to go around them. WTF?

You can only control you.

If we could etch that one in stone!

[jtr1962]

Even worse is when the wrong-way riders insist that you're the one going the wrong way! This has happened to me more times than I can think of. It's amazing that the wrong side of the road mentality has persisted for as long as it has.

[Brian McBlain]

Originally Posted by Darell

Absolutely. And I'd like to add for daytime riding, there are few better things you can do than wear bright clothing. I try to wear my dayglow vest over whatever I'm wearing... except on the hot days, of course. But even then, I wear my brightest jerseys when I'm out in traffic. When I'm offroad, nobody will ride with me if I wear bright colors, so I have some muted jerseys as well.

My summer riding jerseys and shorts start with eye searing Yellow Jersey from Yellow Jersey with their Yellow Jersey on Wheels logo, (of course!) and get brighter from there! The shorts have electric blue and dayglo chartreuse (yellow-green). So I suspected my cold weather gear was an issue but other than some riders in the background of Ca$h Cab, in NYC, and one rider I came across in the Minnesota Habitat 500 (not a participant), I have not seen or heard any endorsement for dropping my last vestiges of dignity to reduce my risk of becoming a traffic statistic, other than post 3 in the what commutters are using thread in the CPF Bike lights section.

I wanted someone to say they tried and stopped or found it helpful and not a waste of money. So thanks again Daryl!

Originally Posted by Darell

Amen, brother! Though this peeve is no pet of mine! I'm in a college down, and I'll often get a wrong-way rider, at night, no lights or reflectors. Scares the living crap out of me. And then there are all the ones who exepct ME to blindly enter the traffic lane to go around them. WTF?

I have adopted the policy when confronted by a 'Wrong Way Peach Fuzz" of pulling right and stopping. At least if they hit me, I have no forward momentum and no responsibility to avoid the accident as I am stationary and a pedestrian. But I have the right to defend myself from assalut with a deadly weapon, and can make sure a well placed leg or arm fends them off as painfully as possible if they do not give room. (I can control only me: I can defend myself.)

I have one of those REALLY long shaggy dog stories that I will shorten to this (yes this IS the short version): I was riding in a well lit street on the bike that's still my main ride when it was minutes old, 29 years ago. I was southbound on the right (legal) side of a Four-lane Main street. I entered the intersection of the main street with a secondary Two-lane, One-Way street going West, parking both sides. I glimpsed a movement at my 2 O'clock: a girl on a bike leaving the sidewalk via a steepish driveway and headed at a 45 degree across the two lanes the wrong way, toward me and the wrong side of my street! If I continued we would likely hit and I didn't know the bike well enough to punch it out of her way. I stopped while I yelled at her. She stopped looking over her shoulder for traffic entering the street to look where she was going, only to go wide-eyed in panic! Crap! She had what seemed to be ages to dodge me as I stayed put to avoid moving into her altered path and waving at her to go round. Nope. She locked up solid. Not brakes. Her. Rigid. Stopped pedalling but did not brake or steer. White knucles. Her front tire hit my down tube in the middle of the Mercian logo. She broke her collar bone when she fell off her 5-speed Raleigh.

Looking back, I may well have saved her life that night, as some motorist might have run her over had she not taken herself off the road. You guessed it: College town, I the grad student and she the undergrad in more ways than one.


If we could etch that one in stone! [/QUOTE]

Yeah, 'you can only control you' is the other side of 'you picked a real good way to get on my bad side'. It needs a tune and more lyrics, though.


I can feel the anger from the primitive unreasoning brain when someone in a motor vehicle is threatening my life because they want to save two seconds. They just don't feel the risk they are taking with the cyclist's life without even asking permission! How rude! Maybe I should just get a loudspeaker with Steve Martin's "Well, Excuuuuuse Meeee!" It'd make me feel better!

It takes forethought to think the tough spots through to I let them go by rather than take my right of way, so I can ride another day. Unfortunately if they are also speeding, it screws up the estimates that I will be out the other side, and the speeders (45+ in a 30) are the worst. So I get control. I assume that visions of large handguns, blasting big holes don't count if you don't actually have, or plan to use such a weapon, right? That's still control, right?

Buying a vest tomorrow.
Should be a good investment in my safety.
Cheaper than a 45 Magnum, way lighter, and not a factor in losing it, anyway!

[manoloco]

Something similar happened to me once with the silver bike:

Part of my commute is on an abandoned trolley road, where theres almost no traffic and is very used by bikes, only thing there are trees on the sides, rails on the middle, the biggest space to ride is in the middle between the rails.

I was going the right way, and this girl came from the wrong way, i put myself in the right side as there was plenty of space for both to pass, then she freaked and closed her eyes...

i had to run over the rails (which i dont like to do as it is not good for the bike) and let her pass.

[jtr1962]

I have an alternative view regarding the highly visible clothing. I tend to ride as if I'm invisible. Basically, this means I don't depend upon anyone seeing me in order to be safe ( and they usually don't anyway ). The corollary to that is of course that it doesn't matter what I wear. I personally have nothing against brightly colored clothing. However, I normally don't wear such clothing. In fact, I don't even own any. Because cycling is a rather spontaneous activity for me ( i.e. I might decide to just go for a ride, and then be on the bike less than 60 seconds later ), it just wouldn't work to have a different set of clothes for cycling which I must change into before riding. It just completely kills the joy to have to do any kind of extensive preparation or clothes changing prior to going for a ride, to the point that I might not even feel like riding if I do. But because I ride as if I'm invisible, what I wear shouldn't make any difference. I've actually become pretty expert at anticipating every stupid thing drivers, pedestrians, or even other cyclists do. As it turns out, potholes are the one thing causing me the most potential problems. Often I just can't see them until I'm almost on top of them, especially the "sneaky" ones which dip down in ways which make them seem much smaller than they really are. Brightly colored clothing isn't going to help much here.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole clothing/visibility thing. I remember reading somewhere that a cyclist who depends upon being seen in order to be safe is stacking the odds against themselves. That goes double nowadays when most drivers are either texting, phoning, web surfing, or on drugs ( prescription or otherwise ). Add to that practically nonexistent driver training. Easy to see why it's a bad idea to depend upon being seen to avoid becoming a statistic. Truth is I'd rather they don't see me. Some drivers just love to run cyclists off the road, or otherwise do stupid things to them. I've had passing motorists throw lit cigarettes or beer bottles at me, open the door to knock me over, once even had a guy on the passenger side piss out the window. He missed, but the car got stuck at the next light. Just by luck there was nice piece of dog poop by the curb partially wrapped in newspaper. I'll leave what happened next to the reader's imagination. A large portion of the population unfortunately still can't stand bicycles. It's better than it was when I first started riding, but things still have a long way to go.

I do have lights for night riding, which is about 99% of my riding. I use them solely to help see the road better ( not that they help much in that regard as the yellow haze from those awful sodium lights renders obstacles practically invisible, and overpowers any bike lighting ), and NOT so others can see me better. If they help in that regard wonderful, but I would actually be surprised if they do. A lot of drivers don't even see CARS, never mind bicycles.

[manoloco]

jtr1962:

i think you make good points, but as Brian said, "you can only control you", im pretty sure you are very proficient at anticipating a lot of things that go on the road, but what happens if you are about to run into a pothole (like those sneaky ones you mention), divert a bit of your attention to it, and something else you didnt see before happens at the same time. Thats when being bright (optically of course) could help you.

i dont have many bright clothes besides the orange no sleeve shirts i like to use when i bike, but i like running the rear light and front light even when theres still plenty of sunlight, it sends a clear message: remember to be careful, i am.

loved the part about the dog poop, talk about karma! (just get out of harms way as soon as you deliver the goods)

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by manoloco

i think you make good points, but as Brian said, "you can only control you", im pretty sure you are very proficient at anticipating a lot of things that go on the road, but what happens if you are about to run into a pothole (like those sneaky ones you mention), divert a bit of your attention to it, and something else you didnt see before happens at the same time. Thats when being bright (optically of course) could help you.

Assuming something like that happens, I'd say my bicycle lights are a LOT more helpful making me visible than brightly colored clothing. Don't forget also that I do nearly all of my cycling at night. Anything I wear is going to be lit up by those awful sodium lights. I'm not even sure bright colors will stand out all that much relative to how they might in full daylight. Orange will certainly appear orange, but so does everything else under sodium lights. But bike lights, especially blinking lights, are somewhat likely to get a driver's attention. Now if only I could find studies to determine what color(s) and flash patterns are most effective.

loved the part about the dog poop, talk about karma! (just get out of harms way as soon as you deliver the goods)

No problem, there are always lots of potential escape routes after making a "special delivery". One of my favorites is to just hop on the sidewalk and ride opposite the way I came. Pretty much impossible for a car to follow me, especially is there are other cars behind it. Yep, I was thinking the same thing about karma when it happened.

[Brian McBlain]

Funny this has become a philosophical discussion. Let me Pile it Higher and Deeper.

You can control only you. I don't want the "I did not see you" to be my fault in any way other than I happened to be riding public roadways and they are not driving in a proper manner. I know that some still won't 'see' me. Some pull out in front of semi's, so this is a surprise? I know I sometimes get into the rhythm of the ride and forget to be fully attentive myself. My vigilance isn't infallible, and that's without a pothole, ball rolling into the street, or dog thrown in. I can use all the help that reasonable cost and weight permit.

The clear effort to mark yourself above and beyond says to those paying any attention that you are trying to help them help you. You are clerly marked as a potential tradffic hazard. The medium is the message. (Unfortuanately messages require attention and thinking and that's where this approach tends to break down!)

If I am clearly marked I expect you to recognize I am present and adjust accordingly. I suspect that once over a certain visibility threshold, this is preaching to the choir and diminishing returns set in fast, but helping even one well-intentioned driver to NOT hit me or scare me is worthwhile for me. Almost hitting a ninja rider made me sick and pissed me off. I don't need the high blood pressure. I don't wish that on any neighbor. So altruism says I need to help as much as is reasonable. Defining reasonable is difficult, though.

Yes for some stupid sociopaths, being well marked makes them aware that what you are doing is more dangerous than safely riding in a riding in a 2-3 ton steel coccoon with padding, belts, and bags. Perfect for the school yard bully who feels your disadvantage is his opportunity. Cities offer a lot of avoidance strategies for this but more anonymity for the perp. Lonely country roads are where this is really scary as the escape routes are few and the anonymity high. Fortunately such incidents are very rare, I know of only being forced into the ditch and an accidental?/on purpose truck mirror hit told by the recipients.

As to special clothes, I get very sore in places not generally displayed in public, unless I do wear 'special clothes'. Riding is a celebration of life for me (not quite dead yet) and preparation is a sort of foreplay. I need my wits about me, out there. Time to set distractions aside. Time to ride. The errand bike and short hops (2-3 miles each way) can be done in street clothes, but I still need the gloves and helmet, so a vest is no biggie.

I see the breakdown something like 90-99% of motorists have reasonable to excellent control of their motor vehicles (assuming you stay away from bars near closing time, late at night anywhere here: meth). You help them not make a stupid mistake when they are distracted by the normal things in their lives. (Cell phones are not 'normal' in my definition if driving.) The remainder are incapacitated to varying degrees or outright hostile/vindictive. You can punch through some of the incapacity some of the time, more if you try harder, but it will be a diminishing returns sort of thing, and safety will never be guaranteed. What in life is, besides taxes and death?

As to retaliation, I do not take the interpretation of Christ's "turn the other cheek" as synonymous with "be a doormat". I use the interpretation of the social millieu of his time. Roman citizens hit slaves and lessors on one side of their faces, and only equals on the other. Turning the other cheek is a demand to be treated as an equal. It may at times be the mouse's upraised middle finger to the owl of fate, but panache is panache. When the stars (Sirius?), karma, or providence provide so miraculously such an appropriate medium for your message, it seems to me your path is clear.

[jtr1962]

I apply a good portion of your "I can only control me" philosophy by choosing to ride at a time when there is a lot less traffic, namely at night. That alone in theory should better my chances by lessening the number of encounters I have with motor vehicles. As 100% of my riding is recreational, I'm free to avoid riding at any times where there is more traffic than my liking. I'm actually very comfortable in traffic, even heavy rush hour traffic, but it kills my average speed, so I'd rather ride when traffic is light. Now I realize that not everyone has this choice. Some take the bike to work or school, or running errands. I work at home so the former is a non-issue.

As for using the bike for errands, in most of NYC it's just not practical given the lack of safe places to park your bike. Most stores don't have indoor bike racks near the security guard where you can chain you bike. The only place to "park" is to chain you bike to a lamp post or street sign. If you do, there's a good chance the entire bike, or parts of it, won't be there when you return. It's unfortunate that this situation exsits, but that's reality. It's a shame that one of the cities with the greatest potential to make bikes everyday transportation remains one of the most bike-unfriendly. Sure, we've added hundreds of miles of bike paths. However, most stores have made no accomodation for bicycles. Even though some workplaces are no required by law to have bike parking in the building, many don't comply. In short, until safe, indoor bike parking exists, the bicycle will continue to have unrealized potential here. I've heard of ideas like adding bike racks in parking lots, but those IMO are half-baked measures. You still have the same risk of bikes being stolen/vandalized as you do chaining them to a lamp post. Being that this is NYC, this reality will always exist regardless of how much law enforcement tries to deal with the problem. Ironic that the simple solution to this is off-street bike parking, but none of the legislators want to hear it. It seems it's a "burden" to require stores to have a small bike rack near the security guard, or for office buildings to allow workers to keep a bike near their desk, but it's not a burden to provide a huge lot for automobiles. Seems like a warped sense of priorities if you ask me. The auto is a mode of transport better suited to rural middle America, not NYC. It's insane policy to accomodate it to the expense of other, more sensible modes like bicycles. The funny thing is many legislators moan that it's a shame bikes aren't used more, but few grasp that until there exists a safe place to keep your bike it isn't going to happen. Ask any NYer why they don't use their bike more often, and I'll guess that lack of parking is the number one reason, with traffic being a distant second. In fact, you don't need to ask, they've already done a study ( see pages 15 and 22 ).

[Brian McBlain]

Sorry, another epistle.

Yeah, I agree, NYC should be a cyclist's dream.

Parking a car had the same issues when livery stables were the usual. How do you change course with the social inertia that centers on the car? Bummer that companies don't comply with bike parking laws.

I have seen pictures of some of the Workman Cargo bikes chained up to signs in NYC. If your bike weighs 50 pounds, and is an old and undesireable working bike, is it safe, or was that likely a high pedestrian traffic area so the risk/benefit ratio too high, or was it staged for the camera?

I also time my rides for weather and traffic. I've learned to avoid being anywhere near the Honda plant at change of shift, and anywhere in town the hour after high school is out. I agree that lower traffic density equates to fewer idiots, but more of those are at reduced capacity by drugs or booze. So I like to keep night rides closer to home where the inebriated are rarer. It is a 45 minute round car trip to the nearest bike paths and they are of an unsatisfactory design, more suited to the walkers who share them, quite begrudgingly and unsafely.

The mid morning or afternoon, though they have less traffic, and less frantic traffic, have a high percentage of those who drive less than 2000 miles a year and mini van moms on cell phones. Driving is not like riding a bike. It requires practice, and some of these drivers were lousy at it when they drove 12,000 miles a year, or when driving with both hands and no phone, so they are 'gawdawful'. Fortunately, they usually drive in a tell-tale way that tells you it is a good time to pull over for a drink (water, only, though liquid courage might be desired).

Bike parking here is all but non-existent. The Y has a rack, not fastened down, tucked just out of sight, and so easy prey to anyone with a pickup, which is just about everyone. While blatant bike theft is very rare, I am attached to my bike and don't care to be the first to find out someone else wants it. But lower population density and few cyclists make it unlikely someone will want to strip it in full view in busy parking lots. The errand bike is too big, not too desireable old large frame Schwinn, and pretty heavy as equipped, so it does OK cableld and clamped to a sign post. I still try to be unpredictable rather than scheduled, so no one can calendar in a free parts collection.

If I am picking up something with the other bike, I ask to place it in full view at the front of the store, or have even walked the aisles with it. As the aisles are pretty free of customers (unlike any place I shopped in in NYC), there isn't a mob of us asking to do this, I don't do it often, and I buy something, so I haven't been stopped. I get dirty looks, but no one has approached me with a viable alternative. No safe bike rack? Well then...customer is always right, right? A bit in your face, but I don't weight 300 plus pounds, and put extra strain on our health system, but at 6 foot and 200 they let me be. Small of me, I know.

The Health food store (a 25 mile one-way ride) suggested I lock to their front pillar. I pointed out that the lock I carried wouldn't fit the pillar alone and a cable lock long enough to do the job would seriously reduce the payload of the light touring bike. There still is no rack there and that city has a high percentage of cyclists who are also customers. I am debating carrying a cable to do the job the next time I want to ride there and back.

I am anticipating commuting by bike with a new job. I am getting the impression that when I look like I am NOT a recreational cyclist, I get a bit more acceptance from motorists who 'see' me than when wearing cycling jersey and shorts. My ability to avoid traffic will be lost, so I hope it will work.

[Darell]

Wow! What a fun discussion.

Originally Posted by jtr1962

I have an alternative view regarding the highly visible clothing. I tend to ride as if I'm invisible. Basically, this means I don't depend upon anyone seeing me in order to be safe ( and they usually don't anyway ). The corollary to that is of course that it doesn't matter what I wear.

I hear you. I really do. Yet I'm definitely on the Brian Program™ here. I absolutely ride as if I'm invisible. I drive the same way. I do NOT depend on anybody seeing me in order to be safe. But I have heaps of experience that has demonstrated to me that being visible to others helps even when I'm not counting on it... but there's exceptions to every rule, and we'll cover that later.

Because cycling is a rather spontaneous activity for me ( i.e. I might decide to just go for a ride, and then be on the bike less than 60 seconds later ), it just wouldn't work to have a different set of clothes for cycling which I must change into before riding. It just completely kills the joy to have to do any kind of extensive preparation or clothes changing prior to going for a ride, to the point that I might not even feel like riding if I do.

I'm not going to go all the way to the "foreplay" that Brian mentions, though I do totally repsect the spirit of the comment. Foreplay for me is waxing/lubing the bikes. Don't think on that too long though...

But to your point about bike clothes getting in the way of your enjoyment - I can't enjoy a ride in street clothes. I'm down to about two miles. If I go longer than that, I just can't enjoy it unless I'm in real bike clothes. Of course part of that is how my bikes are set up, so at a minimum, I NEED my bike shoes. But here's the deal. I bike so often (several times per day) and don't enjoy lounging around in my bike clothes, that I have my bike clothes for the day in one pile, and my street clothes right next to it. I can change from street to bike in about 20 seconds. Usually less. I take longer to blow my nose. So it really doesn't slow me up at all. It is just part of my life. Like brushing my teeth. I typically don't think anything up it unless I'm headin for my pile only to find that my wife is washing it! Then the extra trip to the closet costs me another 20 seconds.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole clothing/visibility thing. I remember reading somewhere that a cyclist who depends upon being seen in order to be safe is stacking the odds against themselves.

OK... we're in dangerous territory here. I remember reading that EVs suck. That they pollute more than gas cars. That Hummers are more environmentally friendly then Priuses (no really, I've read ALL of that!). And back to bikes - I hear all the time that wearing a helmet can make some people do more stupid things than they do if they didn't have protection - so it is more dangerous to wear a helmet. So it comes down to this: You still have to think for yourself! I'm not saying that I depend on the color of my clothing to save me. And I'm not depending on my helmet to save me. They're there for that extra measure of safety if everything else goes to hell. I liken it to driving as if I have no brakes. This makes you a FANTASTIC (efficient and safe) driver. But just because I can and do drive like that, doesn't mean that I don't also want a set of brakes that'll drag me to a stop on an dime... in case I need them.

Truth is I'd rather they don't see me. Some drivers just love to run cyclists off the road, or otherwise do stupid things to them.

Here's where we agree, and what I mentioned up above. There are *definitely* times when it is in my best interests that drivers or pedestrians do NOT know I'm there. And it isn't that they neccessarly want to do me in - I just know that their reaction to seeing me will slow us both down and/or be dangerous to one or both of us. So there are times - bright clothing and all - when I purposefully hide. But that's an exception, and in general I do want folks to see me. Of course I also live in a VASTLY different community than yours, so our differences are logical and many!


OK... I'll stop. My hands hurt.

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by Darell

But to your point about bike clothes getting in the way of your enjoyment - I can't enjoy a ride in street clothes. I'm down to about two miles. If I go longer than that, I just can't enjoy it unless I'm in real bike clothes.

This may have to do with both how our bikes are set up and where we ride. For example, I've never use pedals which require a special cycling shoe. In fact, until recently ( last year ) I never used pedals with cages or any other means to hold your feet. Truth is the jury is still out on whether I like them or not. So far I'm not seeing much advantage to cages, and a lot of disadvantages. The pedals rotate the wrong way ( cage down ) when stopped, so I need to rotate them with my foot and look down to put my foot back in the cage. Obviously this takes my eyes off the road, so that means I try to come to a complete stop as little as possible. I can't say whether it's making things less safe, but it's certainly a possibility. On the flip side, I can get power on the up stroke, but I'm so used to my old way that I seldom remember to pull my leg up. Maybe it might have been easier if I didn't have 30+ years of habit behind me.

Same thing for the clothes I wear, although that's also a product of my environment. I'm just used to riding in street clothes. Most of the time it's too cold here for bike shorts/jerseys/whatever anyway. The kind of weather where that type of clothing might be advantageous is exactly the type of weather I prefer not to ride in. For me temps in the 40s or 50s are ideal cycling weather. Mid 30s is tolerable. On the other end of the scale, 60s is borderline, anything higher is just too warm given the high humidity here. I will ride in the summers at night, provided it's 80 or less, but that usually means immediately jumping in the shower upon arriving home. So forget cycling clothing. Not terribly useful in this climate most of the time.

Ditto for a helmet. I've read the pros and cons, came to the conclusion that a helmet would be useless in the type of accident most likely to kill me ( a high-speed car-bike collision ), and really only useful in very limited circumstances ( generally hitting your head at speeds less than 10 mph ). Well, I don't ride less than 10 mph, even uphill, and at that speed I can just hop off the bike if everything goes to hell. In 60,000 miles of cycling I've fallen a number of times, 90% of it during the first couple of years, and not hit my head once. Not saying it can't ever happen, but chances are good that the kind of accident where I hit my head will be one where it's because I'm thrown 50 feet after getting hit by a drunk driver. The helmet in that case will probably just mean a little less of my brains are on the street, but dead is dead. I don't care if I'm a slightly prettier corpse because I was wearing a helmet. But the helmet would make me a lot warmer and less comfortable 100% of the time ( remember my intolerance of warmer temperatures ). This is a case of little if any benefit but a lot of downside, at least for me personally. And I love the sound of the wind whistling through my ears. It's one of the things I love most about cycling. Take that away, it makes the experience too sterile.

Now we have environment. The streets where I ride tend to have low-speed traffic compared to lots of other places. I can see cars well in advance. Moreover, because a lot of people here cycle, cars are aware of and somewhat knowledgeable of how to deal with cyclists. Sure, this is NYC, and nobody, whether drivers, cyclists, or peds, follows the rules all the time. However, we all at least know what to expect. A car might see a cyclist approaching a intersection, and be aware that they likely will go through the red light. A cyclist will see a car moving right, and give them a wide berth knowing they are making a right turn next block, even though their turn signal is off. It all seems like chaos to an outsider, but it works surprisingly well. Frankly, it's really mostly the amateur cyclists who get in accidents ( along with a few delivery people ). They haven't acquired their "street legs", so to speak. Thankfully many use common sense and ride on sidewalks if traffic is heavy. Yes, it's technically illegal, but an inexperienced cyclist puts themselves and people like me in more danger on the street. As these cyclists are generally fairly slow anyway, they don't pose THAT much danger to pedestrians on the sidewalk. I used to ride on the sidewalk a lot more than I do now until I felt comfortable in the street. I'll still take to the sidewalk to get around heavy traffic, but that's almost never these days.

Another part of the whole environment here affects the clothing. A good contingent of noncyclists look down with disdain on the "spandex crowd", as they like to call it. Now a lot of those choosing to wear cycling clothing might do it simply for pragmatic reasons as you do. Nevertheless, around here in the general public's mind these people are all lumped together as inconsiderate Lance Armstrong wannabees, and treated with disdain by drivers, pedestrians, cops, etc. Sure, most aren't like that, but it's the few who give those in cycling attire a bad name. You'll see them flying along through red lights at 30 mph screaming at pedestrians crossing with light to get the f*ck out their way. Or you might see them at equally breakneck speeds dodging pedestrians on a crowded sidewalk yelling profanities. What happens then is everyone in cycling attire is one of these kamikaze idiots as far as the general public is concerned. So by NOT wearing cycling clothing I'm probably avoiding bringing a lot of undesired attention on myself. And on my good days, I drop a lot of these Lance Armstrong wannabees in my street clothes. Yes, I'm going as fast or faster, but not bringing a lot of attention on myself. That's how I like it-stealth speed. Nothing can really quite match flying along in an urban landscape. The street changes every second, your attention darts between a thousand things, you're overwhelmed by the wind, the speed, the sights. When it happens it's like a zen experience. Books have been written about it, some have attempted to capture it on film ( not entirely successfully I might add ). It's one of those things you have to do and love to appreciate. Even to a regular city rider everything rarely comes together. You need heavy but quickly moving traffic, lots of sidewalk activity, and then the everyday sights and sounds of the city. The closest a non-cyclist can get to it might be to take the el during the busier times of the day, preferably on an express run.

And I'm not depending on my helmet to save me. They're there for that extra measure of safety if everything else goes to hell. I liken it to driving as if I have no brakes. This makes you a FANTASTIC (efficient and safe) driver. But just because I can and do drive like that, doesn't mean that I don't also want a set of brakes that'll drag me to a stop on an dime... in case I need them.

Well, I would NEVER ride a bike without a decent set of brakes. This is why the fixie craze, which is especially big among delivery people, drives my nuts. Yet another group giving a bad name to all cyclists as they fly through red lights screaming "no brakes, no brakes!" at the pedestrians in the crosswalk. I caught up to one of these idiots once and told him how I thought he was only slightly more evolved than bacteria on account of his choice of equipment and bad attitude. He had nearly mowed down a couple of pedestrians a few blocks before. Funny how I stopped at the light, yet still managed to catch up to him. Maybe having GEARS is actually a useful thing after all.

Of course I also live in a VASTLY different community than yours, so our differences are logical and many!

That was the point of my whole diatribe. What is great in CA might not work at all in NYC and vice versa. Don't mean to seem parochial but a lot of times it seems there's the rest of the country, and then there's NYC. We just do things differently here. Most attempts to get us to align with the rest of the US have been about as successful as getting a fish to breathe air.

OK... I'll stop. My hands hurt.

Me too.

Fun thread though.

[jtr1962]

Originally Posted by jtr1962

The closest a non-cyclist can get to it might be to take the el during the busier times of the day, preferably on an express run.

In that vain I found this nice video of the 7 Express on you-tube. Just revisualize the whole thing at street level, with road traffic and pedestrians, plus more street noises, and you have some idea of what I was referring too. Great wind noises in the video too, pretty similar to riding.

[Brian McBlain]

This is more that I'd hoped for! Thanks guys.

On our choices. There are no perfect answers as each of us, and our situations are different. CPF Bike lights hammered that home. But I have learned quite a bit even from a New Yorker! (GASP!)

Our love of cycling comes through loud and clear.

Toe clips and straps became easier with a tang on the back of the pedal and practice. Eventually. But you have more traffic to deal with, and that may trump it. Clipless are a bigger pain in town though I have ripped the cleat off when I had to dismount NOW! Yeah I get more power pulling up but rarely use it and must think about it. I like the feet firmly on the pedals for applying power suddenly without shoes slipping off the pedals. Other pedals and other shoes may work, but I have 'double joints' in my feet and hands so after 20 miles, without good clipless shoes I can't stand the pain any more. The 'oneness' with the bike feeling is addictive, though.

I hated the idea of spandex. But unless I didn't want to ride more than 5 miles a day from May to October, I needed the least amount of the best breathing clothing, with the best padding that friction, the law, and UV protection would permit. I got some better vsibility but some anti-spandex response. When I went with a more erect postion (so I could actually use my hands to write with after a ride), fenders, and lights, I was no longer a 'racer' but a 'fat (getting thinner), weird old guy on a bike'. A nutter. Someone to steer clear of. If they 'saw' me. So I like the chamois, I like the breathability. I like the visibility. Hate the look.

Helmet. Rode years without one. Suffice it to say a day came that made it clear I needed one. Collisions at 20+ mph do not necessarily mean your head hits first or that it is still doing 20+ mph. In my close calls with brain surgery or a memorial service, if I had hit my head, it would have been slower than that, and the surrounding traffic was essentially nil, so no garbage truck to turn me to road pizza after the mishap. An advantage for cycling here! One for here, a gadzillion for NYC. Oh well. I now feel naked if I ride to test a bike repair and don't put it on. I do not feel safer and risk more: that concept is crap. Every time I put it on, I think me: helmet and quick responses; them: bumpers, metal, airbags, seat belts padded dashes, inattentiveness, and the can't be fixed: stupid.

Anyway, the helmet anchors my mirror (which I DON"T want on my glasses) something that has saved me too many times to count, and now it's also the base for flashing lights so I can be seen as a minnow in pods of SUVs. It seems to accelerate air flow and water added to cool under very hot conditions, gets dammed and soaked up and releases slowly. Nice. I tape it over in winter and the air layer helps a lot, saving a hat if mild. So it's grown on me sort of like athlete's foot, I guess. That, and it just might help when it's a storm and it's any port in a storm.

Sidewalks? We don't got no sidewalks! We don't need no stinkin' sidewalks! Sorry. Columbus, Indiana switches you back and forth from street to sidewalk for their 'bike' path. Too often stretches are not suitable for road rims if you like yours to stay round. Here, the old parts of town have a few which are narrow and difficult for pedestrians because of buckling. On the other hand, they rebuilt the road to Columbus Indiana for 18 miles with 8' shoulders. Stay just inside the rumble strip away from the detritus that increases toward the ditch and you have a clear lane. A very nice safe ride.

Not too many spandex types here to ruin things. The few of us who wear cycling togs are mature citizens and try not to get in the face of others. Share the road!

In a college town with lots of cyclists and motorists who expected cyclists, I had a lot of great rides with the feel of the tires on pavement through the saddle, the responsiveness in the handlebars, the wind in my hair (pre helmet) the smell of grass (both kinds), BBQ, restaurants, rain steaming off pavement, and the sights and traffic whizzing by. Hard to do that on film. An 'I'm alive!' moment shy of adrenaline overload. Daytime ninja with just a rear reflector. I KNEW I was invisible. Yeah, I can't quite ride fast enough now to recapture that.

Your preaching to a Bass in the choir when it comes to brakes. I understand SS and fixie, but no brakes? A locked rear tire is NOT a brake. It is a semi-controlled, if that, way to skid. Their necks. Organ donation, anyone? I am not sure I could control all that fight or flight stress of adenaline well, if I am walking with a long in place green light and have someone on a fixie yell "no brakes" as he charges toward me. He had better miss me.

Different strokes (just not heat or brain, ones). My wife likes the ANSI vest. And so the debate about whether to wear one ends, for me.
Better to be loved and NOT be lost, I guess.

Thanks for a great chance to compare notes and for me a nice pep talk to carpe diem and ride.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by jtr1962

In fact, until recently ( last year ) I never used pedals with cages or any other means to hold your feet.

Cages are harder to get into and out of. In fact, that's why "clipless" pedals were created. There's only one way out of a pedal clip, and it isn't the same each time depending on how tight you pull the cinch. Clipless was a revolution for me - though I hate the name. You "clip in" to a clipless pedal. Go figure.

On the flip side, I can get power on the up stroke, but I'm so used to my old way that I seldom remember to pull my leg up.

Odly enough, adding power to the upstroke isn't what they're designed for. But it is REALLY nice to be able to rotate the first pedal up to position when you come to a stop at an intersection. Something that's a pain to do with flat pedals. Some of my most seroius bike injuries have happened when my feet have inadvertently come off the pedals. The feeling of being connected to the bike is one of the most compelling reasons I use them. For offroad, I especially don't want my feet bouncing off! Yup, I've ended up on my butt, with the bike on top of me, still clipped in. All part of the fun.

Most of the time it's too cold here for bike shorts/jerseys/whatever anyway. The kind of weather where that type of clothing might be advantageous is exactly the type of weather I prefer not to ride in. For me temps in the 40s or 50s are ideal cycling weather.

OK, you lost me here. For the past couple of months here it has been in the 20's and 30's. It warmed up to 40 today. I'm not saying that I live in a "cold" climate, but wearing bike clothes in cold weather even more important to me than wearing bike clothes in warm weather!

If it is high humidity working against you, bike clothing is specifically meant to move moisure away from your body. If your option is wearing cotton street clothes, then have I got a revelation for you! For cold riding, here's what I look like. That's me on the green bike with two thermal layers under my wool jersey with the bright vest as frosting. It was about 35 degrees in that shot.

really only useful in very limited circumstances ( generally hitting your head at speeds less than 10 mph ).

While I cruise at 18 or 20 mph, I certainly go slower than that very often. Climbing big grades, coming to a stop and getting going again. Riding off-road. I've fallen off my office chair (granted, I WAS doing well under 10 mph)... and hit my head on the concrete floor. Saw stars and had a headache for three days. I wish I was wearing a helmet that time. And I wasn't far above the floor, nor going at any speed when it happened (damn office parties!) I'm not convinced that there are any safe speeds or circumstances where a helmet would be of no use. And has been mentioned, it holds my mirror as shown in the photo above as well.

But the helmet would make me a lot warmer and less comfortable 100% of the time ( remember my intolerance of warmer temperatures ).

I can honestly say that I'm more confortable in almost all cases with my helmet on than off. It keeps the direct sun off of my head, and the air channels are HUGE in modern, high-end helmets.

And I love the sound of the wind whistling through my ears.

Bike helmets do NOTHING to stop the wind around your ears. Motorcycle helmets are another matter.

[manoloco]

compared to the other ones in the picture, the green bike stands out very clearly, i forgot post a comment about how nice your bike looks when you posted the first pic of it on the thread, plus its a very safe color.

the person at your side seems to be resting a bit on the top part on the handlebar, perhaps the brake hoods are too forward?, i used to rest a bit often on the same part of the handlebar until i recently changed the position of my brake hoods and handlebar to a more comforable one for city ride, now i dont take my hands off the brake hoods, unless i want to go on the drops, much more comfortable:

[Brian McBlain]

Totally agree about needing cycling clothes more in the cold. Something I learned once I owned them. With multiple breathable layers I have ridden down to -5 F. Head, Heart (core), Hands, and Feet, need the attention, not quite 4-H, although Health is in there. Any one of those gets cold you are cold.

As to riding on the tops, I have to rotate positions to keep my hands functional after longer rides. Sort of a carpel tunnel pressure on the nerve issue that tends to increase with age. Blood flow restriction under cold conditions is another. It makes warm feet and hands essential to maintaining blood flow and power in arms and legs on cold rides.

With the errand bike, I use the toe clips only to place my feet to avoid the scrapped shins from sliding off pedals and to position pedals. I only tightened them on the ride to the orchard where the pull up can help. So getting out of them in town is easy and fast with no cleats on the shoes. I have also 'unclipped' clipless in a sudden emergency by pulling the shoe right off the cleat. Adrenalin helps.

[jtr1962]

I definitely do the layer thing myself, only with street clothes. Undershirt or thermal undershirt ( depending upon how cold it is ) for the first layer, sweater for the second, windbreaker for the third, sweatshirt for the fourth. Two pairs of socks if necessary, but almost always one is fine. That's good for about 10°F-15°F except for my hands and ears. Unfortunately, because of those two things my limits are roughly mid-30s ( numb fingers are the main limit-I can deal with the cold ears to about 20°F ). I've yet to find a pair of gloves which both keeps my fingers warm AND lets me maintain enough deterity to operate the bike. I have pretty severe CTS, especially in the right hand, and braking/shifting hurts enough without the added stiffness of gloves. Yesterday was a 10 mile ride with fleece gloves in high 30s weather. By the time 10 miles were up, I had to quit on account of my fingers numbing up. Frustrating because I was actually perspiring a bit in the core, to the point I unzipped my windbreaker a bit to allow breathing.

So anyone know of warm, but very flexible gloves? I'm tired of not being able to ride when it gets much under 40°F, which unfortunately is a lot lately because this winter has been colder than usual. The major downside of getting less cycling in is the lack of conditioning on the days when I do cycle. Yesterday's ride averaged a pitiful ( for me ) 12 mph. Granted, included in that are multiple stops for lights/obstacles, AND I was fighting a 20 mph headwind sometimes, but it was still pretty depressing. Generally, on a ride, I try to click off a mile ( or better ) per 4 minutes ride time, and I count any stops or slowdowns in my time. Conditioned, this is usually fairly doable if I avoid rush hours. I just need to accelerate like a subway train when lights turn green, and cruise in the low to mid 20s. Now I'm at 80% due to not riding much last month. It felt like a struggle to do 20 mph most of yesterday's ride other than when the tailwind was pushing me along. Ugh.

Low 40s today, hopefully less wind. I'll try again.....

Also, I'm of the opinion elbow/knee pads would probably prevent more common cycling injuries than helmets. I've skinned both probably a dozen times. I really wish I had some knee/elbow pads on that time I hit a pothole at 37 mph.

[Brian McBlain]

My outer layers for cold riding are street clothes or look like street clothes. I used to soak the cotton terribly, then I got cold. Those street clothes seams are part of the reason for a bit more chamois padding.

I hear you on the hands thing. On cold fall mornings in mid October to Thanksgiving 25 years ago, I had to peel my left hand off the handlebars when I got to campus. I couldn't wiggle a finger and the whole hand throbbed. I discovered over this past year and a bit, that I react to a lot of foods (gluten, etc) with high blood pressure and digestive issues, but to the Solanaceae (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, tomatillos) aka The Nightshade family, with arthritic pains in every joint but the hands and feet in particular. For those who test food sensitivities, this is a common association. I even wake up cradling a hand that feels like it is being squeezed in a vice if I eat enough of them. So my relief has been mostly diet.

Padded handle bar tape and a good padded glove were the trick in mild weather to allow me to write after a ride. I couldn't do fine manual anything for 10 days after my first 50 mile ride. A lot of bike adjustment and testing and I can write again!

In cooler weather, I wear a light weight leather glove but that can be too little isolation. Cooler, and the padded fingerless goes inside the light weight leather glove. At about 30 F I switch to a heavier insulated leather glove. About 10 F I add a convertible knit mitt/half glove over the leather. No CTS, and big hands, so I have no issue operating anything except the dinky little persnickety switch on the Cygolite battery.

I am not dealing with NYC traffic, am I? I don't have the canyons concentrating wind, though here it can sweep over the fields and through town at breathtaking speeds. When I researching winter cycling for ideas, I saw a NYC commuter bike with handlebar wind screens to keep the wind off less insulated hands. Pretty nerdy, but an idea I have contemplated especially on windier days. Maybe he still has the page up. About all I can think of. I do feel your pain. Heck, I feel my pain!

Good thing I had last winter as my first try to maintain condition to spring, because I agree, I haven't been on much this winter and my speed is low, the stand is boring, but I can still crank the local hill WAY better than my return to cycling three years ago. It's a bummer that my heart rate is back up. Oh well, at least I HAVE a heart rate!

I can see the elbow and knee pads as modified warmers, just enough to save skin and sacrifice themselves. No hockey or skate board pads needed. Unless you need to intimidate a pedestrian? There is a certain negative reinforcement in losing a bit of skin to ride smarter as long as you don't lose your head!