Electric vehicles!

[Darell]

I'm headed to Detroit. Do you think it will be as cold there as it is here? I mean we're down to the 40's and only get to the 60's for highs! Brrr.

[Darell]

The EV concept from Toyota is gonna be a little guy. Is rumored to be based on this:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/20.../toyota_iq.jpg

[unique]

Sigh .
Too nimble for me, I'm not the type of guy to drive nimble cars. I love the size of WRX cars, not too small and not too big. I would die for an electric version of those.

[jtr1962]

Any thoughts on this? Basically, the idea is that EVs only use batteries around town. For long distance highway trips the vehicle draws power from the guideway, and drives itself at high speed (up to 200 mph). I've been hearing forever about the range issue with EVs even though it is greatly exaggerated. This idea puts that to rest once and for all. It's a pity we didn't decide to do this in the 1970s. While high-speed trains are of course a better solution from an efficiency and safety standpoint, this idea would have been more acceptable in an America mostly averse to public transit.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by jtr1962

Any thoughts on this? Basically, the idea is that EVs only use batteries around town. For long distance highway trips the vehicle draws power from the guideway

This was my 4th grade thesis! No, really. We were to write, "what will the world be like in the year 2000." And I wrote about how the highways will be like slot car tracks. Battery cars would drive from home to the main highway on battery power, and then put their stinger into the track to both charge and power the car. Steering would be taken car of like a train until you wanted to exit. You pull the stinger up and run on battery power again.

So yeah... for 35 years or so I've thought this would be a pretty good idea!

[bgiddins]

Electric vehicle charging stations go live in San Jose:

http://earth2tech.com/2009/01/06/cou...e-in-san-jose/

[Darell]

Originally Posted by bgiddins

Electric vehicle charging stations go live in San Jose:

http://earth2tech.com/2009/01/06/cou...e-in-san-jose/

Yeah... the thing is, there are already LOTS of EV charging in San Jose (and all across CA, actually). These new "pay to play) chargers are actually replacing some of the "free" chargers we already have in place. So the only news here is that there are now "Coulomb stations" available in San Jose. There has been charging available for about 13 years.

Between Sunnyvale and San Jose, we have about 13 public charging locations right now.
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/ch-bay-all.htm

[Darell]

So out of nowhere, it seems that this new E-bike really exists.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02...th-at-150-mph/

It'll be a bit pricy, but then again - it is in superbike-destroying territory. With the available torque, I have no idea how the front tire will stay down!

[Darell]

I never thought I'd see the day. Road and Track will do performance testing on many of today's electrics. In fact, they call it a "celebration." Ah... have we finally arrived?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=7460



Don't miss the video! http://www.roadandtrack.com/video/in...tid=5395993001

[unique]

Good video mate

[jzmtl]

Interesting review for the tesla roadster I read, by jeremy clarkson. http://www.baileycar.com/TeslaJC.html

[McGizmo]

That is an interesting interview. I find it odd that he feels that hydrogen cars are the real answer and not electric. I wonder if he is open to looking at the situation from a different yet viable perspective.

..This is because a characteristic of the electric motor, apart from the fact it’s
the size of a grapefruit and has only one moving part, is massive torque. ...

I can't help but think that this aspect of the electric car bothers him whereas I find it to be quite compelling and justification for hoping to see EV's come to fruition?!?

[Darell]

Though there is odly no date on that, it was written several months back - and hashed out repeatedly. I really have nothing to add. Clarkson is an entertainer - not an objective reporter in any way. He's as entitled to his warped opinion as any of the rest of us.

There's no question that he bends the "facts" to make a good story.

[Darell]

Check out this Prius. Just like a regular prius, but way more complicated with severely reduced durability. It has 10% less HP, it is louder, it has only 75mi of range, costs $100,000 and an unsubsidized fill up would cost $75. Sounds like a great deal to me!

Can you guess what fuel it uses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nL4iuE2Fqo

Sure makes a $10,000 PHEV conversion sound like a hell of a deal, eh? If you add extra batteries, you get better acceleration, quieter operation, longer range with no decrease in durability. Tough call.

[unique]

That thing needs to be crushed and never see the light of day again. Who the hell would come up with that!!!

Darell said:
It has 10% less HP, it is louder, it has only 75mi of range, costs $100,000 and an unsubsidized fill up would cost $75. Sounds like a great deal to me!
-
Not to mention ALL the other crap like TURBO, and cooler ETC. Lots more weight and SO many extra parts, more room for things to go wrong, which means forking out MORE money for car parts.

These guys make so angry at how STUPID some people can be

[theforester]

Here's a little bit more hope that BEVs are at least going to have a shot at becoming the norm. Found this review while surfing. I've never heard of this one before, perhaps because it's British. Sure is nice looking! Here's the official site: http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/home.php

Also, here's a video of it's unveiling. It's a bit boring, but they give a few specs near the beginning.

Cheers!

[Darell]

Well, there are MANY EVs that are due to be produced in "a couple of years." While this looks great and sexy and all that, I just can't waste much excitement on a vehicle until they've got real rolling product.

I do think that the next 2-3 years are going to be amazing, however. There have been too many promises for them to ALL fail. And now that Tesla has shown this to be possible - even if the economy is putting the screws to them - I think we're in for a good ride in the near future.

[theforester]

I believe we've already mentioned...somewhere...that rapid recharge batteries are possible and already exist. This may be reiterating the point again, but I just stumbled across this article discussing them (mainly in cellphones, but they do mention EVs). It's not a very tech oriented article, but it does give a bit of info about how they work...very basically.

[Darell]

Yeah, this whole "fast charging" stuff leaves me wondering what the excitement is. All or our modern battery chemistries can be charged pretty darm fast - to the point where we are simply limited to the size of the delivery pipe in the case of an EV with a high-capacity battery. The batteries can be charged quite a bit faster than we can supply the power - assuming that we don't get to plug into the Hoover Dam directly.

And you SURE aren't gonna charge in a few minutes from this plug or cord shown!
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...93_468x309.jpg

We can make fast chargers... we HAVE made fast chargers. We just have to decide how important they are. Most cars will benefit from a slow, cheap overnight charge. We're sleeping, afterall. But strategiaclly placing some fast chargers along the interstates will make long-distance travel practical for EVs as well. But again - this isn't new batteries we need. It is simply the desire to spend the money here (instead of, say, Hydrogen stations).

[theforester]

Interesting...So is the main problem with rapid charging an EV the current (Amperage) required to do so? I'm intrigued by this.

Darell, in your "80 Reasons" document (which is fantastic if I haven't already said so ) you pointed out the fact that for EVs to become "acceptable" for long road trips they would need batteries that could A) Be charged very fast or B) Be able to hold a relatively large amount of energy. They don't need to be able to do both.

Here's my take on this:
If batteries are now at the place where recharge time is being limited by current capacity through standard cabling and not by the battery's ability to absorb the energy, this effectively makes the pursuit of rapid recharging (on this scale) a resolved issue. Therefore, it seems that the boys doing EV battery R&D should be taking the route towards higher energy density. If that made any sense! Not to say that they aren't already, but my interpretation of this is that the only major hurdle that still stands in the way of making EVs mainstream is battery capacity. That's fantastic! One hurdle is much better than the dozens of hurdles in front of fuel cells!

[Darell]

Originally Posted by theforester

Interesting...So is the main problem with rapid charging an EV the current (Amperage) required to do so? I'm intrigued by this.

I wouldn't even call it a problem. It is simply the limiting factor at this point. We already have the technology - in place and currently being used - to fast charge. Slow charging will always be cheaper, and in about 90% of cases will be no less convenient for the user. So it simply comes down to a cost/benefit situation. Not a problem, just a choice.

Darell, in your "80 Reasons" document (which is fantastic if I haven't already said so )

thanks. I still need to revisit and improve on many of them. When I started it I figured I'd come up with maybe 20... and then it just kept going and going and going. I even ended up combining several of the items. Takes time!

you pointed out the fact that for EVs to become "acceptable" for long road trips they would need batteries that could A) Be charged very fast or B) Be able to hold a relatively large amount of energy. They don't need to be able to do both.

Yup. At the extremes, if you could travel 500 miles on a charge, but it took all night to recharge, I think that we'd cover 99% of private vehicle road trips without fuss. Or if the car had 100 miles of range and 5-minute recharge time... we'd again cover 99% of of private vehicle use in a convenient way. Heck, we'd probably prevent accidents by getting people out of their cars for five minutes every two hours.

Here's my take on this:
If batteries are now at the place where recharge time is being limited by current capacity through standard cabling and not by the battery's ability to absorb the energy, this effectively makes the pursuit of rapid recharging (on this scale) a resolved issue.

Yup! This has been a non-issue (or resoved issue if you please) pretty much since the first production EVs came out. There is no rocket science involved here. It just takes a big pipe, and that costs more money than a small pipe. For the price of just one or two fuel cell stations we could install fast charging stations every ten miles along every CA interstate. Seriously. At one point it seemed worth it to invest in H2 infrastructure. If that was true, then fast charging should be a slam dunk. Surprise... it isn't.

Therefore, it seems that the boys doing EV battery R&D should be taking the route towards higher energy density.

And mostly they are.

the only major hurdle that still stands in the way of making EVs mainstream is battery capacity. That's fantastic! One hurdle is much better than the dozens of hurdles in front of fuel cells!

It is certainly the public perception hurdle. Probably have to add cost to that as well, though all studies have shown that in similar quantities, EVs won't cost more than equivalent gas cars. We just have to get to those production numbers which will not be easy nor pain free.

[theforester]

Originally Posted by Darell

I wouldn't even call it a problem. It is simply the limiting factor at this point. We already have the technology - in place and currently being used - to fast charge. Slow charging will always be cheaper, and in about 90% of cases will be no less convenient for the user. So it simply comes down to a cost/benefit situation. Not a problem, just a choice.

Way to nitpick Darell!......Naw, just kidding. I actually meant to say limiting factor, just couldn't find the right words!

Originally Posted by Darell

...we'd probably prevent accidents by getting people out of their cars for five minutes every two hours.

Good point, I've actually mentioned this to critics who viewed EVs as worthless if they could't be recharged in under 10 minutes. And I would have to point out that every few hours of driving they would probably have to get out for bathroom breaks, food breaks, or just to stretch their legs anyway. So why not spend a little more time at each stop enjoying their surroundings (stopping to smell the roses if you will) while the car recharges. It would only require a small investment of time and would help to garner some patience at the same time! Meanwhile their car would recharge and they would be able to go about their business (food, bathroom, etc...) without the nonstop rush they currently accept. And of course batteries will only get better and therefore frequent or long duration chargings will gradually diminish. Hmmm...I guess that was more of a rant than I had intended!

Originally Posted by Darell

It is certainly the public perception hurdle. Probably have to add cost to that as well, though all studies have shown that in similar quantities, EVs won't cost more than equivalent gas cars. We just have to get to those production numbers which will not be easy nor pain free.

Yeah, silly me, I didn't even consider cost! I guess I was too focused on the techie side of it. That is another thing that the EV critics I've talked to don't seem to comprehend. I will be telling them about the Tesla, for example, and they will be interested, but when I tell them the price tag they think it's outragious. Then I have to explain that yes it's high but... A) They are currently hand made, not mass produced; B) They are made by a relatively small and new company, C) The Tesla is a sports car not a basic sedan and D) Will be very competitively priced when major car companies decide to produce them again or when Tesla or other small companies are able to grow and upgrade. Man I just can't wait for that point!! It can't come soon enough!

Returning for a moment to the rapid recharge issue though, here's a question...This is probably embarrasingly naive on my part as I don't know my electronics very well, but if the main factor limiting the rapid recharging of EVs is the high current involved (and thus the need for large cables)...why not build a recharging system (on the wall and in the car) that will transfom the power to a higher voltage to allow the same power trasfer with lower current (and smaller cables)? Similar to wiring a battery bank in series to increase the voltage....I think I'm going to need to do some math...

[Darell]

Originally Posted by theforester

I will be telling them about the Tesla, for example, and they will be interested, but when I tell them the price tag they think it's outragious. Then I have to explain that yes it's high but... A) They are currently hand made, not mass produced; B) They are made by a relatively small and new company, C) The Tesla is a sports car not a basic sedan and D) Will be very competitively priced when major car companies decide to produce them again or when Tesla or other small companies are able to grow and upgrade.

I skip all that and tell them that the comparable gas cars cost 2.5 times as much. For the performance of the roadster, the $100,000 price tag is the best bargain around. The car can't be compared to a Honda Civic!

Returning for a moment to the rapid recharge issue though, here's a question...

There are many folks around who are way more qualified to answer this one, so to avoid making a fool of myself, I'll hope one of them chimes in. The one thing that I do know is that to get 50-100 kwh's to flow in a few minutes - there is no free lunch.

[unique]

Who made evs-wont_work?

I downloaded this file and keep a hard copy of it on my computer. I absolutely love it.

Is there anything else similer to it?

edit:
MOVIE SPOILER AHEAD!
(Thought I'll add this bit)
I watched Watchmen few days ago at iMAX, and at the end of the movie, they talk about the future and what not and show a red EV that kinda looks like an EV1 out the front of a store charging from the front exactly like the EV1.
I go, LOOK LOOK its an EV! And people were just like what?! They had no clue about the car, except me and my girlfriend. haha.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by unique

Who made evs-wont_work?

That's 100% mine. Like most of the serious documents on my site.

Is there anything else similer to it?

Not that I'm aware of. That's why I had to create it.

a red EV that kinda looks like an EV1 out the front of a store charging from the front exactly like the EV1.

We're pretty sure it is an EV1. Like you say, at least the nose and charge port are!

[theforester]

Just found this article by USA Today, looks like some utility companies are seriously considering EVs as the future of transportation...at least in Cali! I can feel the momentum building...and I'm all the way over in Ohio!

[McGizmo]

Thanks for the link to the article! Nice catch.

[Darell]

SCEdison has been at the lead of the pack in EVs for quit some time. I love the 17 million EV mile statistic. And that these 1999 cars are still logging 120,000 miles per month collectively. The power companies have a vested interest in making EVs work... and I'm all for that vestment!

[unique]

THE Tesla roadster is FINALLY IN AUSTRALIA . It will be at the Clipsal 500 amongst all the V8 Supercars.

The first person to be able to import the roadster down here is Simon Hackett. Some guy who is a manger of a huge ISP company in Australia.

Here is a link to check out: http://www.internode.on.net/about/green/ & http://www.internode.on.net/tesla/

I will post the link to the guys post but this section of forum is not accessable to non-registered users and users with <50 posts, so here is what he wrote:

For anyone who happens to be going to the Clipsal 500 in Adelaide this week, stick your head into the "Murray Walkers Extreme Machines" pavillion (accessible for all general admission tickets)...

... and take a look at my shiny new Tesla Roadster

I ordered it in 2006, and its finally here – we just managed to get it here (literally by flying it over from LAX on the weekend) in time for the Clipsal event.

Described by Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear as the end of dialup and the start of 'broadband motoring'(*) – its a high technology, 100% electric sports car.

I'm passionate about electric vehicles, as it happens, and one of my aims in bringing the first Roadster to Australia is compliment what Internode already does in terms of Green initiatives (http://www.internode.on.net/green).

i.e. The point of the exercise, for me, is to work towards busting the notion that you can't be both green and high performance. You can. Like a Roadster. And indeed like Internode

The Extreme Machines exhibit cars are out on the track doing 3 laps each day as well – I was out there a few hours ago doing the first of those today and... oh gosh its fast!

It accelerates like being pushed by a huge, fast, hydraulic ram. 100km/h in under 4 seconds is just.. biblically quick (to borrow from Clarkson again)

Even cooler is being told of the crowd response – a heap of loud, smoking high performance cars whiz past, followed by something just as fast but... silent.

It generates a rather wonderful 'WTF'? response for people at first, and then the penny drops. Very cool indeed.

So there you have it – green high tech can be fast and cool.

http://www.tesla.on.net

By the way, the next confirmed appearance of the car (thus far) is at Greenfest in Brisbane (http://www.greenfest.com.au) in June.

Regards,
Simon

(*) Oh, and Clarkson faked the car running out of juice on Top Gear (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/22/b...ar-complaints/). I can tell you that some hard charging laps today didn't have that effect on mine. Its still got hundreds of km's of range left after whizzing around the track.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum....cfm?t=1164912

Exciting times for Australia, exciting times for EV's ALL around the world. I love this whole momentum of great things to come!!

[Darell]

Great news!