CPFGreen

jtr1962 · #**361** 12-18-2009, 05:11 PM

Interesting article on the effects of noise pollution

Brian McBlain · #**362** 12-18-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darell

any "safety" we get ... making noise is because the (sic) sound LIKE CARS. Make it sound like Bon Jovi and I'm not sure it'll be as effective, though I can still see people running for cover...

We filter out a tremendous amount of sensory input in order to function, much more when distracted or drunk So an expected sort of sound from an expected quarter signifying an approaching car when you are listening for one is one situation, and arguably the typical one for the sioght impaired on the street. Penetrating the fog of inattention is a differnt issue. Any sound behind you in the parking lot when you expect none, gets your attention (usually, unless far from sober, or an escaped child).

I think the real concern is with those who have some degree of vision impairment and use sound to recognize a car is nearby. I suspect you are WAY more attentive to sounds if they are your best means to keep from being hit, but will defer to someone with vision impairment. Tires and wind make noise on an EV though low rolling resistance tires and heightened aerodynamics may reduce those a bit. So I don't know that an EV need to sound like any other car, but it would be nice if they all sounded the same and were perhaps unique... More cow bells?

Apparently not cow bells but identifiable as a car, and an EV at that:
http://autos.aol.com/article/gm-volt-sounds-blind

TedTheLed · #**363** 12-19-2009, 05:56 PM

why not take advantage of this valuable resource and use it for advertising.
have the horn blast a sales message before impact; like; "DRINK BUDWEISER!!!" (womp!)
the list is endless; adult diapers, (wish you were wearing a pair?), insurance, how about hearing aids?
I said how about...

Brian McBlain · #**364** 12-20-2009, 12:02 PM

The experts GM had evaluating the Volt seemed remarkably unconcerned and their needs appeared easy to meet with a soft, short, stacato horn.

Maybe you can choose rythyms. With even two notes and three would be better yet, you could have approximations of short themes: Heartbeat (it's A CHEVY, fer Pete's sake!), Jaws, The Empire Theme, Vader's Theme, Beethoven's Fifth, La Cucaracha, Shave and a Haircut, Happy Birthday, Here comes the Bride, Singing in the Rain, I'm a Comin', Swing Low (Coming for to carry me home), to name but a few, and I'm sure that snarkier ones are on the tips of your tongues.

Darell · #**365** 02-03-2010, 03:59 PM

How's this look for something fun to watch?! Electric race motorcycles on film.

Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLkRx56C2Vw

site:
http://www.chargemovie.com./

rodfran · #**366** 02-05-2010, 04:51 AM

Those electric race motocycles!
WOW! If that is not enough power for you, then I guess you must drive a top fueler to work!
They look like something from a futuristic sci-fi movie.

Darell · #**367** 02-05-2010, 12:15 PM

Indeed, we're seeing just the front edge of the tidal wave here folks. As this is really the first attempt at electric super-bikes, just imagine what happens after a few years of refinement/experience/advancement. The ICE has stagnated, and e-power has just gotten to the runway. Grab something and hang on.

Brian McBlain · #**368** 02-05-2010, 02:42 PM

Yeah when the bean counters are taking notice....

http://autos.aol.com/article/gm-electric-strategy

...there's change (charge) in the wind.

Darell · #**369** 02-07-2010, 06:27 PM

Contributing to my 14 minutes of fame....

An interiview I did with SolarChargedDriving.com
http://solarchargeddriving.com/news/...up-on-sun.html

Darell · #**370** 02-24-2010, 08:19 PM

Couple of days ago I got to enjoy an extended drive in the electric Mini. Fantastic car!

http://evnut.com/mini-e.html

McGizmo · #**371** 02-25-2010, 07:51 PM

Darell,
Do they have any plans of opening up sales of the mini? I have a friend over her who had to put her's to sleep (ICE version). Not many mile but I guess a blown tranny and too costly to replace/ repair or something.

Darell · #**372** 02-26-2010, 12:09 PM

As of right now, the entire Mini situation is up in the air. Initially, this was one year, close-ended lease. Recently they started making noises about letting the drivers keep them longer, but nothing has been finalized. The year runs out for some folks in just a couple of months, so it is tricky! Folks can't just buy another replacement car in a moment, you know?

But BMW will not say what their future plans are. We all know they've got a few cars in development, but it appears that they're taking the "wait and see" approach to let the big guys make the missteps into the market.

The bad - and expected - news... nobody knows.

McGizmo · #**373** 04-29-2010, 11:10 AM

It now looks like the Nissan Leaf is going to be the first mainstream EV available in the states? I got on the list for one but then I have been on the list for an Aptera for over a year now.

Would this Honda be considered an EV?

OK, I guess GM's larger version would.

Darell · #**374** 04-29-2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGizmo

It now looks like the Nissan Leaf is going to be the first mainstream EV available in the states? I got on the list for one but then I have been on the list for an Aptera for over a year now.

Would this Honda be considered an EV?

OK, I guess GM's larger version would.

Ya know... if you were to look back over some 30,000 posts or so on various online forums, you'd find me having predicted that the Nissan LEAF would be the first real, mainstream, affordable, large-company EV to market. I made that call two years ago. And while it hasn't been proven just yet, we're still on track. So assuming that nobody is willing to search all my posts, I'll just take that back-slap now.

I'll definitley go on record as saying that you'll be driving a LEAF way before you'll be driving your Aptera!

I hadn't seen that Honda unit before. The omni-directional wheels is some crazy stuff! I wonder how it works after it's picked up a bit of lint? Of course what drives me nuts is that we just continue to invent stuff that keeps us from ever having to exercise.

You know... for that increased quality of life we're all after.

McGizmo · #**375** 04-29-2010, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darell

.....

I hadn't seen that Honda unit before. The omni-directional wheels is some crazy stuff! I wonder how it works after it's picked up a bit of lint? Of course what drives me nuts is that we just continue to invent stuff that keeps us from ever having to exercise.

You know... for that increased quality of life we're all after.

Good job on predicting the Leaf!

As for that Honda rig, probably great for those otherwise immobile and also good for new generations who find it a work out getting off their fat asses in the first place. I think the technology is awesome and I don't doubt it has its applications yet to be realized. It does also have that special flavor akin to the automated toothpick into olive impalers which no modern kitchen would be without.

Brian McBlain · #**376** 04-30-2010, 12:36 PM

You can add an electic motor to one of these:

http://i42.tinypic.com/25fll48.jpg

Then charge the battery with solar or a generator exercycle. 25 mph would do for short commutes here. My wife thinks it is very cute.

Darell · #**377** 05-02-2010, 11:42 PM

Ahhh! no! Don't ruin a perfectly good HPV with an electric motor!

Brian McBlain · #**378** 05-03-2010, 04:49 AM

I am in condition and can likely get the 70 pounds of it up the hills here OK. My wife can't. If an electric assist and solar charging get her to leave the car for the 3 mile one way to her office, at least in warmer weather, where's the harm? We aren't flat like the Netherlands. She hasn't been on a bike since breaking her collar bone.

Anything MORE that an electric asssist puts it in a world of regulations as a motorbike that would be prohibitive.

Darell · #**379** 05-03-2010, 09:25 AM

OK, I'm busted.

If you find me a good example (the ones in the picture sure look sweet!) that DOESN'T have E-assist, let me know before you tear it apart!

Brian McBlain · #**380** 05-03-2010, 03:22 PM

Try this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=265012 Entertaining.

You will find a video of a Florida HPV climbing a high bridge with and without e assist (and dodging a garbage truck, too), there somewhere, and jet powered versions.

(a lark, but that should get them not to tailgate or risk melting their grill and removing their paint.)

But the low coutries being low lack much in the way of grades to climb, so apparently many are not e-bikes.

You make me feel better about wimping it out as an e-bike if kathryn would buy in (she thinks they are really cute especially with the soft top. At 37-40+ kilo they are heavier than a Big Dummy with cargo brackets. They make trikes look light weight.

jtr1962 · #**381** 05-03-2010, 06:02 PM

I hate to think how fast one of those could go with one of these. The highest power one can take a regular bicycle with the aerodynamics of a barn door past 45 mph. I wouldn't be surprised if it could get a decent velomobile to twice that. Of course, the legality ( and possibly safety ) of the end result would be questionable at best. Maybe have a hidden switch somewhere which limits the top end to ~20 mph just for those times you might encounter law enforcement. "Look officer, I can't get it past 20 no matter what, even downhill."

On another note, what's with electric bikes with e-assist being limited to 20 mph? The limit should be more in line with what a decent bike and rider can manage a full tilt on gentle downgrades, say perhaps 35-40 mph.

Brian McBlain · #**382** 05-03-2010, 07:11 PM

Indiana allows for up to 2 hp and 25 mph max on a level grade or moped/motorcyle lighting, licensing and other aspects apply.

I assume these have 'throttles'. Seems like you'd only need to have a remote switch controlling a solenoid that moves a block to prevent full travel of the throttle for the Police check. Also, if set up for my wife, I don't see many officers wanting to try to see if it is too fast as long as it isn't way above 25 mph (especially since it is a 30 mph zone all the way).

In our case, think there is enough grades, stops, bad pavement, railroad tracks and other issues she would be doing very well to average 25.

The Dutch use Sturmey Archer (Sunrace) 70 mm drum brakes on the small front wheels. The upgrade to 90 mm drums reduces stopping distance 1 m. They don't have repeated stops (bike paths) and grades (contintental shelf). I'd think that discs would be better for any place with grades and or a lot of stop signs and lights or stop and go traffic.

Daryl's use of solar power for transportation really captures both Kathryn and my imagination. I wonder how an electric assist HPV compares to a Leaf if both were on solar recharging?

If electric bikes and mopeds are around the corner, why not a beefier HPV one, capable of staying with traffic in 45 mph zones and lower? Extend your range or increase climbing and accelleration and get you aerobics in too. Hmmmm.

jtr1962 · #**383** 05-03-2010, 07:57 PM

Yes, they have throttles. The EE in me is very interested in exactly how these throttles work. Remember that this is a brushless DC motor. You can limit the speed by PWMing the battery voltage. This effectively makes the motor act like it's connected to a battery with lower voltage. End result is reduced starting torque and reduced maximum speed. Note though that the final maximum speed in any partial throttle setting still heavily depends upon the aerodynamics of the bicycle. This is to say that 25% power would have 1/4 of the starting acceleration of full throttle, but perhaps balance of 65% or more of full throttle balancing speed. That's similar to the way it works when you pedal, isn't it? A lot more power only gets you a little more speed past a certain point.

The second way of throttling the motor is a lot more interesting. You can directly interface with the motor's controller rather than PWMimg the power supply. You can still get lower acceleration rates at lower throttle settings if you want to. However, you can get full acceleration also if desired. Speed control is where things get very interesting. You can put hard limits on the motor's speed by limiting the rate the motor controller can switch. This limits how fast the rotor can turn. Effectively, you can get full torque up to some speed, and then have it sharply fall off to zero. Basically, this means a hard speed cutoff. 20% throttle can give you 20% of maximum speed, 40% can give you 40% of maximum speed, etc. And you can limit the torque in the lower throttle settings if desired ( it probably is desireably, at least for the first 50% of the throttle's travel, just in case you might need to creep forward or accelerate slowly ). End result of doing it this way is much finer speed control in the lower speed ranges. And it makes retrofitting that 20 mph cutoff much easier.

Truth is if I bought one of these and the throttle didn't work the second way, I'd probably make a controller just so it would for kicks.

EDIT: Actually it sounds like they might do it the second way. The motors communicate their spin rate and position to the controllers, which in turn decide what set of poles to energize. In that case, making the motor do whatever you want is feasible.

On the brakes, yes, go with the 90 mm drums or whatever the largest size you can easily get. Remember that the brakes on a human-powered bicycle at most must deal with the maximum average power the human riding it can generate ( except on very long downhills where you're keeping your speed in check ). Even for Lance Armstrong this is well under 1 HP. Not so once you put a motor on the bike. Now the brakes might suddenly be asked to dissipate 5 or more times what they did with a human riding. And considering the bike will likely be way faster than before, putting in as good brakes as possible seems a logical thing to do. The going part is great, but the stopping part is even greater.

No, I doubt you wife would be bothered much by cops for going too fast. It's not like cops regularly put a radar gun to bicycles. The bike would have to be going way over 25 mph for them to even notice. It sounds like between traffic and terrain that isn't likely to happen much, even with a motor.

Yes, I want a nice HPV right now which could keep up in 45 mph traffic under leg power alone. If it was later motorized, it would be a very efficient e-bike!

Brian McBlain · #**384** 05-04-2010, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtr1962

Yes, they have throttles.

I thought after that they'd be twist grip a la motorcycles. If they can work in series, a master 'range setting' one would do the trick of hiding true potential top speed. In NY state e-bikes are illegal. I'd guess no one would recognize an HPV as a 'bike', so you'd likely get away with it. When a cop learned you were running it on solar charged batteries, I suspect all thought about the thing possibly being 5 mph too fast would be gone in 'I don't care if some legislators made this illegal its just too cool to be ticketed'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtr1962

No, I doubt you wife would be bothered much by cops ...between traffic and terrain that isn't likely to happen much, even with a motor.

I think she can hide the fact that it might wind out to 35-40 on the flat. Biggest concern is being swept up on the bumper of a large truck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtr1962

Yes, I want a nice HPV right now which could keep up in 45 mph traffic under leg power alone. If it was later motorized, it would be a very efficient e-bike!

Yeah, there's only the $10,000 price tag and parking.

Brian McBlain · #**385** 05-09-2010, 01:25 PM

A friend posted this link:

http://www.bluevelo.com/Order_from_Europe.html

So with electric assist we're talking $10-12 grand depending on options. A Nissan Leaf is said to be about $25 grand. But if you planned to use a solar charging station, you'd need a lot less expensive one for the assist batteries than the LEaf's and less cost on replacement, too.

Not googling it right, Maybe you'd like to play the genial host , Daryl and ppint me to the right page(s) ovf EVnut or other sites to figure out what a solar chargeing system would cost for the assist system (They have different power levels, I know).

Darell · #**386** 05-09-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian McBlain

Not googling it right, Maybe you'd like to play the genial host , Daryl and ppint me to the right page(s) ovf EVnut or other sites to figure out what a solar chargeing system would cost for the assist system (They have different power levels, I know).

I'm not exactly sure what you're after with "cost of solar charging system for the assist system." We just need to know how much battery you'd like to fill, and how fast you'd like to fill it.

My experience is in roof-top grid-tied solar systems though. I'm sure there are others who would be better equipped to sort this one.

Brian McBlain · #**387** 05-10-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darell

I'm not exactly sure what you're after with "cost of solar charging system for the assist system." We just need to know how much battery you'd like to fill, and how fast you'd like to fill it.

My experience is in roof-top grid-tied solar systems though. I'm sure there are others who would be better equipped to sort this one.

It will be the battery of an electric assist versus the one in the Leaf. Each recharged overnight with the power used in a 10 mile commute/errand run, a full range drive Saturday once a month needing until Monday morning. Power stored in the day from a roof top array augmented by the grid if not sunny enough, and possibly with excess over full storage supplied to the grid and hopefully balancing or in excess of power used from the grid. Rooftop solar.

So it sounds like we need a SWAG for power consumed on the daily commute for both vehicles of 10 miles round trip or a bit more. If the roof array overflows to the grid enough, and full discharge/recharges are maybe once a month, the storage battery may only need hold enough to recharge the daily use of the vehicles' batteries with the grid being the overflow/excess charging 'battery'.

I may be wrong headed. I grew up with ICE. This is all new thinking for me.

Darell · #**388** 05-10-2010, 11:59 AM

So for grid-tied solar, you don't store anything. You use the grid as your storage (sort of). Basically, if you aren't using it, then your neighbor is. When you want your power back (say when the sun isn't shining) you spin your meter forward again, and take out what you need.

In the end, if somebody has any amount of solar on their house, charging an electric-assist bike will be a drop in the bucket for the system. In other words, it would take more effort than it is worth to calculate out and determine how small the system should be in order to net-zero for keeping the little battery charged each day. I have an electric lawn mower. On a weekly basis it would probably use roughly as much energy as an electric assist bike. And I don't even notice when the mower is being charged twice as often as usual. In the grande scheme of things, it isn't enough to notice. Now going and getting gas... THAT I noticed.

Brian McBlain · #**389** 05-10-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darell

So for grid-tied solar, you don't store anything. You use the grid as your storage (sort of). ...In the end, if somebody has any amount of solar on their house, charging an electric-assist bike will be a drop in the bucket for the system.

Thanks. I have what I need to design a system.

I see your point about an e-bike or two being drops in the bucket. A Nissan Leaf would need a bigger offset to be "solar powered". Solar power supplied in peak hours of peak summer demand would be when I have the most insolation and could generate the most solar power. That's when they are most likely to fire off surplus capacity plants which can't be a good thing for our air quality or carbon footprint. That's pretty slick. You address two environmental/carbon footprint issues at the same time and reduce dependence on foreigh oil. The cost of the cells has come down, too.

jtr1962 · #**390** 05-10-2010, 06:11 PM

That's the beauty of solar power actually. In middle of the day when it's hottest, and people are mostly likely to have their ACs on full tilt, is exactly when the solar cells will be generating peak power. In fact, with solar power you can effectively get what amounts to a primitive form of energy storage by just having more thermal mass. Have the AC or heat kick on during the period of peak solar generation. This heats/cools the thermal mass, and allows the house to stay warm/cool without power well through the night when the panels would be generating nothing. Best of all, thermal mass can be as simply as strategically placing containers of water around the house. It never wears out like batteries, and doesn't require a sophisticated charging system.

The battery in a grid-tied EV can serve a similar function if you don't plan to use the car the next day. Charge during peak solar output, use the stored energy through the night. If you do plan to use the car, then set a limit on how much the battery discharges so you can get where you're going and back.