Switch to Front Load Washer

[greenparty]

I've used them since the late 1960s and they gotten even better at saving water, electricity, detergent, bleach and clothes wear. You can save at least half of all the previously listed things with a front loader.

[LukeA]

Although you don't need to use as much detergent as the bottle recommends in any washer. I read once that you could fit enough detergent for the life of the maching in the spaces around the drum.

[Darell]

I'll never go back since switching, that's for certain. And it is the only laundry machine we've had that'll fit an entire sleeping bag. WAY better than taking it down to the commercial cleaners at the end of the season. Clothes are cleaner, they come out dryer (spun faster) and don't get beat up as much. Saves water, energy, detergent. Of course the catch (as usual) is that they can cost more up-front. But the savings down the line are indisputable.

[greenparty]

Good point Darell, it's very convenient to wash large items normally taken to a laundromat and using their frontloaders.

[DUQ]

I've heard that front loaders are having some reliability issues. True..yes?

[Darell]

None here yet. Six years, I think.

[TedTheLed]

"front loader" ? is this the best we can do? care to define your term, or mention a brand? why are they more efficient?
I have a top loader, but the drim rotates horizontally, is that where the energy savings comes from? It's a Staber, it has been fairly easy to get and install new parts -- which wouldn't have been needed if not for the rats..

[Darell]

Originally Posted by TedTheLed

"front loader" ? is this the best we can do? care to define your term, or mention a brand? why are they more efficient?
I have a top loader, but the drim rotates horizontally, is that where the energy savings comes from? It's a Staber, it has been fairly easy to get and install new parts -- which wouldn't have been needed if not for the rats..

Front Loader = Horizontal Axis machine. Obviously you can load a horizontal axis from the top. But you knew all that!

You're serious about asking how it is more efficient? Did you just accidentally buy one?

A couple of efficiency reasons that come to mind: The motor isn't reciprocating (which causes constant acceleration/deceleration). A horizontal axis machine just rolls gently one direction at a time and it isn't fighting the knot of weth clothes. The motors can be smaller and lower output. Yes it sometimes reverses, but not every second or so. The other savings comes in water usage. Instead of having to flood the whole drum, the clothes are constantly tumbled into a shallow puddle of water. If this is heated water, it saves even more energy. For whatever reason, horizontal axis machines are also capable of spinning faster so if a dryer is used, less time/energy is needed. Oh, and they need less soap!

[TedTheLed]

no, serious. I bought one because of the remote repairability, the low energy consumption, and advertised ability to work off of inverters with a slow start up draw..
it did claim to use less water while washing the clothes better due to the impacting squish as they fell during rotation..but I hadn't really considered the 'shallow puddle of water' theory till now..hadn't really thought of the motor reversing every second either, I think I assumed that the back and forth movement was somehow generated by a unidirectional motor hooked up to some sort of cog mechanism to supply the back and forth..reversing every second would be energy consumptive for sure.

[Darell]

No matter how the reversing is accomplished, it's wasted energy. Reciprocating any mass is a big energy hit.

Yeah, they use a lot less water. They don't just flood the whole drum. Just use enough water to get the clothes thoroughly wet.

[TedTheLed]

I know: I have an old VitaMix blender with a something like a 4 hp motor(!?) This thing liquifies egg shells, whole tomatoes are churned into hot soup in minutes..plus it's got this "instant reverse" button. The idea is you get the stuff churning in one direction then whammo! you reverse the blades and hit with twice the impact..only ifIi do this while on high, the house lights go out -- which means the thing is drawing over 5000 watts from my inverter -- makes a nice spray of sparks too, yet this is how it was designed..
I don't think they make them with such a large motor anymore, they may not even reverse anymore either..

[Darell]

I have a Vitamix! And the motors are still huge.... but reverse is gone.

[greenparty]

An update on my washer which may apply to other appliances. I had to "reboot" - unplug - the machine for a few seconds and go through the diagnostics test for good measure. The machine began collect a series of malfunctions and went "insane" by staying in some modes forever.

So far, so good, but I wouldn't have caught this without paying close attention. Most users load the washer and walk away. This makes me nervous.

[Brock]

What brand is yours? We have an LG, the LG's had a know issue of a bad seal on the tub drain, but other than that I haven't had any mechanical issues. I did once try to stop it during a cycle, way too much soap. I really confused it and ended up unplugging it and plugging it back in to "reset" it. I do wish it had a stop and drain out now button

[Darell]

I have the Whirlpool Duet. And while it works great, it constantly smells like mold. I've bought the offical "Affresh" tablets and did the 3-tablet treatment. Now it is mold with notes of citrus. No idea how to get rid of it. Doing bleach loads does nothing for it either. We leave the door wide open between loads. Friends and family with the same unit have NO trouble, so I don't know what's special about ours.

Say... anybody seen the dog?

[Brock]

That mold smell weird. I just ran a cycle with way to much bleach, about 1 cup on the sanitary cycle and it was gone. I wonder if you somehow got some water outside around the drum but inside the cabinet. If you get really ambitious flip it over and take a look. Ours is hollow, you can see everything up around the drum. Or does it only smell inside the drum?

[Darell]

Flip it over? The thing has about 70 pounds of concrete balast under there! I may be able to jack it up a bit and have a look under there. There is always water somewhere. If I move the drum I can hear it slosh. Can't see the water though. And you'd think that bleach would take care of it, ya know?

[Brock]

You should get out and ride your bike more Ya it's heavy but I flipped mine on it's side and I be lucky to keep up with you on a bike if you were jogging

[Darell]

Well, hell. If YOU can do it, then I'm sure I can too. Keep the women and children back. Darell's going in!

[idleprocess]

Someone educate me on horizontal washing machines. I'm moving into a house and debating whether or not to rid myself of my aging washing machine and dryer.

I have noticed that the cost premium for a horizontal machine is immense to the tune of about double. I can see the water and energy savings easy enough (even the detergent savings aren't difficult to imagine), but are they that much more durable and do they really pay off in the long run?

[Darell]

Originally Posted by idleprocess

are they that much more durable and do they really pay off in the long run?

I don't know if they are ANY more durable. Didn't even know that was claimed. I do think that your clothes last longer. You need much less detergent/water/hot water/electricity to run then. And you need less drying time since they spin faster than traditional machines. They also hold more so you can do fewer loads on top of the other advantages. Will all this put money back into your pocket after a while? I don't know.

So the question back to you: Are you asking from the prospective that it is all about the direct money you pay/save? And if you are going to get a proper, personal ROI regardless of the price to society? As usual, this comes down to what price you put on environmental damage. If it is only about saving money, washing by hand is your best bet! I'm not trying to be snotty here... just being Darell.

What does "pay off" mean?

[Brock]

They also tend to clean clothes better. Any commercial laundry facility has them and no top loaders. You also can't "unbalance" a front loader, at least I have never heard of it, but top loaders it is much more common. LG also makes a washer/dryer all in one. Just throw your clothes in and leave. If you have lot of laundry two separate units helps because you can do twice as many clothes in the same time (one washing one drying) where the all in one you have to wait until it’s all done. Might be good for an apartment, dorm, vacation home or other limited space / use application.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by Brock

They also tend to clean clothes better.

Hey, I said that already!

Any commercial laundry facility has them and no top loaders.

Good point to the durability question. It is similar to a reciprocating (ICE) engine and an electric motor, I'm sure. The top loaders "agitate" which beats itself and the clothes to death. the front-loader spins in just one direction at a time.

You also can't "unbalance" a front loader, at least I have never heard of it, but top loaders it is much more common.

Oops. You'll hear of it now! I've managed to unbalance ours somehow. But only once in several years. For sure way less common.

[drmaxx]

Originally Posted by idleprocess

Someone educate me on horizontal washing machines. I'm moving into a house and debating whether or not to rid myself of my aging washing machine and dryer.
but are they that much more durable and do they really pay off in the long run?

From a financial point of view: No, they usually do not pay off - at least not in a place where you have plenty of water and you're not washing excessively.

Nevertheless, you are posing the typical cost-benefit question and this is usually more then just finacial considerations.

In Europe (Germany, Switzerland) most people would never accept a top loader that simply agitate their laundry. The benefit of having clean clothes is worth the additional cost. If it comes with additional benefits (less water, detergents, ... - see the rest of the thread) even better.
I had a similar discussion about dish washers with my parents in law. They simply can not understand why I am shelling out twice the amount of money for a dishwasher - while I can not understand why anybody wants to deal with a machine where you have to prewash the dishes and then still only parts of the dishes come out clean. What a waste of time and money.

Besides the benefits front-loaders also have disadvantages: The cycles tend to be longer and the stress on certain fabrics is higher (e.g. high-performance polyester clothes starts to pill way faster in front-loaders). Additionally, comparable machines tend to hold less clothes per load.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by drmaxx

Besides the benefits front-loaders also have disadvantages: The cycles tend to be longer and the stress on certain fabrics is higher (e.g. high-performance polyester clothes starts to pill way faster in front-loaders). Additionally, comparable machines tend to hold less clothes per load.

I'm a bit confused on these. Cycle time on our front loader is shorter than for the machine it replaced. The front loader seems to be more gentle on ALL the fabrics that we wash. And our front-loader holds about 50% more than our Super-capacity agitator did.

[drmaxx]

Yep - the danger of generalisation. You're right, this is not a black and white matter. Additionally, my experiences might have a US (mainly top loader) vs. Europe (front loader) bias.

Originally Posted by Darell

Cycle time on our front loader is shorter than for the machine it replaced.

Typically, a load of laundry (front loader) takes about 1 hour - there are shorter cycles (35 min) but most cycles need between 50 and 70 min. This is not statistics but my personal (loooong) experience with washing. Most American that come over here and experience that, are somewhat surprised. Again this might be an American / Europe thing.

Originally Posted by Darell

The front loader seems to be more gentle on ALL the fabrics that we wash.

In a front loader the different fabrics rub intensively against each other. This is one of the reasons why the machine washes better. If you have rough and fine fabrics in the same load then you have an abrasive effect on the surface structure of the smooth fabric. This is mainly an optical effect (pilling). E.g. we stopped washing bath towels and duvet covers or jeans and polyester-shirts together. Alternatively, we stuff them into bags from preventing rubbing against each other.

Originally Posted by Darell

And our front-loader holds about 50% more than our Super-capacity agitator did.

Again this might be an EU/US thing. Most machines over here are '4-5 kg'. Fairly small compared to the ones I know from the US. And yes, you can by larger ones. But they are just not common.

[drmaxx]

Here's the future (?):
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/media/press_r...ng_machine.htm

[Darell]

Wow! A cup of water?! If you "need" hot water, then you'll likely want to heat it on the stove, as there's no hope of getting one cup of hot water from the house plumbing without first running it for a while (just the hoses to the machine hold more than a cup!

[TedTheLed]

does it kill fleas, flea eggs, etc.? my friend wants to know.

[SilverFox]

Hello Darell,

Did you ever figure out what was causing the mold smell in your washer?

Tom