Mylow Motor: Hoax, or something new?!?!

[McGizmo]

Have any of you guys picked up on or delved into the Mylow Motor
story?

I watched This video and it seems pretty interesting.

[idleprocess]

Hoax.

An alternate phrasing of the three laws of thermodynamics comes to mind every time a perpetual motion or free-energy claim comes along...

1. You can't win

2. You can't break even

3. You can't leave the game

Anyone can demonstrate a system with very little loss that appears to be a perpetual motion machine. It is also possible to think you have discovered "free" energy only to later determine that energy from an external source was being introduced into the system.

I've also noticed a pattern with those claiming to have discovered free energy. They almost always have close parallels to conspiracy theorists, rarely have a background in a field closely related to their "innovation," are always being inexplicably persecuted, and are true believers in their "innovation." They rarely allow their device to be examined by professionals, and frequently espouse utter nonsense about why their devices work.

Even if this guy has magically produced perpetual motion, it's useless since it produces no net gain.

[josey]

Geez, that was so far over my head I didn't have to duck.

[McGizmo]

Idle,
I don't pretend to understand any of the physics involved here or anywhere, for that matter. However, magnetism has always struck me as magic. I doubt a "permanent" magnet is actually permanent but while it can do work, it is quite impressive. How this energy is stored as potential energy is pretty mind boggling.

I believe one of the most efficient energy devices we use is the electric motor which works on magnetic fields. That this motor seems to function on magnetic fields that are resident in the magnets and not involving any controled electro-magnetic fields seems to be fresh in concept. I suspect that energy is spent and that the magnets would degrade over time and there was some mention of this.

I have no idea if there is some untapped magnetic field characteristic involved here that might have applications in electric motors or not. Is a magnetic field a viable storage device for energy? Not related directly but the rail guns are pretty amazing devices and capable of imparting emergy into motion of objects at speeds never realized by more conventional means of propulsion.

I don't dispute the three rules you mentioned and I don't think this motor, if it is legitimate, is necessarily inviolation of the three rules. However the rules, as stated, seem to impart a "why bother" attitude and are a bit negative in approach; what you can't do. Have we exhausted all exploration into what we can do? Is there nothing left to discover or learn?

[josey]

A magnet can be suspended above another pretty much forever, at least as long as the magnets retain their magnetism. This suspension requires work to overcome gravity. Magnets are interesting.

[TedTheLed]

"every person takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

[McGizmo]

Recently, on one of the "Gee Whiz" channels, I saw a piece on the earths magnetic field and how if it weren't for it and the fact that this field deflects solar radiation that we would all be toast and likely there would be no life on earth. They also mentioned that there is an area over the Atlantic where the field is getting weaker and at a very significant rate. They went on to state that scientists are trying to understand what it is that generates our magnetic field. They speculate that molten nickle in the core is in motion and that this generates the field. What I found a bit spooky was that the poles have changed on the planet a number of times during its life and that it is expected that another flip of the poles will occur in the not too distant future. They have no idea how long this flip takes or what the ramifications are for life on the planet during the process when it is exposed to solar radiation. Interesting tangent on magnetism.

Back to the Mylow motor, supposedly it is based on a patented motor from a guy named Howard Johnson and that this patent has expired. I realize that this has shades of the 120 mpg carburetor rumors of 30 years ago and other fantastic devices that never saw the light of day but plenty speculation and conspiracy theories. Today with the internet and YouTube, there are new opportunities to bring ideas to the masses that don't require the interest and decisions of the media. If there is some wonder gadget, it might have a chance at getting some recognition even if it is not in the best interest of powers to be. On the other hand, all of the nutcases and misguided souls have access to a much greater audience and they can prey on the "If I read about it, it must be true" mentality of those willing to trust blindly.

Some of you may remember those solar wind vanes (don't know what they were called) that looked like a large light bulb of clear glass that had a vane of white on one side and black on the other disks? You put this thing in the light and the vane would get to spinning real fast. I believe these worked on the differential of energy transmitted to the white reflective side VS the black absorbing side. Light drove these. I think of this Mylow motor in the same fashion and interest but what is different is the consideration that driving energy is there in the stator magnet for as long as the stator magnet has a magnetic force. Also, there is much greater inertia to overcome in getting the motor up to a steady state speed and more energy spent keeping it spinning against the inherent friction. Will a stronger stator spin this motor faster? Will a stronger stator keep this motor spinning even if the motor's energy is tapped and used to move something else? How efficient is the conversion of magnetic energy to energy of motion by this motor? There are no brushes where electrical resistance would eat some efficiencies. I am assuming that the stator could be an electromagnet where one could conceivably vary the field power and alter the motor's output.

I don't know if there is legitimacy to this motor at any level, if it has any merit nor do I know if there was or is any substance to the reference of MIB in regards to this motor. I do know that the best interest of the consumers and general population is not always in sync with the best interests of those with the power and "in the business" and as a result, one set of interests is catered to at the expense of the other set.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

I believe one of the most efficient energy devices we use is the electric motor which works on magnetic fields.

Correct. Though it is efficient at converting one form of energy into the controlled pulses that control the electro magnets. Using two uncontrolled magnets hasn't resulted in anything like what is "demonstrated" here. Yes you can suspend one magnet over another, but you can't make energy out of that - same way that you can suspend a brick over the floor with a length of string.

I hate to sound all negative, but I can't help it. I don't see anything here that is any different from the literally thousands of perpetual motion machines shown in YouTube videos from around the world. What's special about this one? The magnets?

The first logical thing that jumped out for me is that the "stator" seems to weigh much less than the "rotor" shown here. He made a huge deal about how heavy that platter was, and yet the stator seemed to weigh very little. Why is there no torque on the stator as it tries to shove the heavier rotor around? This thing is "self starting" remember. The stator is just sitting there on blocks of wood. If this thing works the way claimed, I'd expect the stator to move first.

That this motor seems to function on magnetic fields that are resident in the magnets and not involving any controled electro-magnetic fields seems to be fresh in concept. I suspect that energy is spent and that the magnets would degrade over time and there was some mention of this.

Is a magnetic field a viable storage device for energy?

I can't see how it could be any more viable than gravity. If we can tap gravity's power source, we're set!

Not related directly but the rail guns are pretty amazing devices and capable of imparting emergy into motion of objects at speeds never realized by more conventional means of propulsion.

However the rules, as stated, seem to impart a "why bother" attitude and are a bit negative in approach; what you can't do. Have we exhausted all exploration into what we can do? Is there nothing left to discover or learn?

There are MANY things we can do, and plenty that has not been exhausted. We learn new things all the time. But this *is* a perpetual motion machine. And if we can have perpetual motion, we can probably also have endless life. I just can't make logic out of it.

In the end, all that has to happen is for this device to be subjected to scientific study. Why are these things NEVER offered up for study by a trusted resource? If that happens, and it is what it says it is, then game over. We stop drilling, we stop polluting our air and water. Life is grand. Bring it on. Or is there *always* a conspiracy holding these things back? In every case? And not one has gotten through?

[josey]

Well, some good points, and I'm not capable or inclined to defend the guy with the new machine. But there is a lot of power in electromagnetics. MagLev trains, and such, could cut transportation costs by huge amounts.

And we can harness gravity: That's tidal power. And the heat in the earth's core is a massive store of power.

We don't use these other sources, even super abundant solar and wind, because fossil fuels have been so cheap and handy. Well, we're now finding out they were cheap because we have been using the earth as a toilet. I expect we'll see all kinds of new energy sources and energy-efficiency strategies in the coming years. It will be exciting, on one hand, but scary, too, because we may have waited too long.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by josey

But there is a lot of power in electromagnetics. MagLev trains, and such, could cut transportation costs by huge amounts.

Absolutely. And electromagnets use external electricity. EM uses that energy efficiently for sure, but the source is external, and the open system violates no physical laws.

And we can harness gravity: That's tidal power.

Ah, good point. Imagine if we could harness the movement of the earth around the sun.

I expect we'll see all kinds of new energy sources and energy-efficiency strategies in the coming years.

I'm not convinced that we'll find all that many "new" energy sources. Efficiency strategies, absolutely. Those negawatts is what it is all about.

It will be exciting, on one hand, but scary, too, because we may have waited too long.

Indeed.

Of course I have similar feelings about using cheap fossil fuels to foul our planet (in other words, not taking into account all the costs associated with fossil fuel consumption). Fossil fuels became huge because it seemed like an endless source of energy when it was discovered. And if this magnetic engine is what it seems, it is an even EASIER endless source of energy. It would be criminal to NOT market this thing. What are we waiting for?

[McGizmo]

Darell,
Your quotes there got me a bit confused.

As for perpetual motion. I believe the objection for most is the notion of perpetual motion without energy used in this motion and therein is the conflict with the laws of physics. I don't think perpetual motion as I would see it defined, should have any assumptions or conditions on the energy source or usage, per se. But then the notion of perpetual motion looses some of its glamor and magic.

If the demonstrated motor is in fact just a hoax and not what it is being reported to be then shame on those jerks. If on the other hand, permanent magnets can be arranged in such a fashion that a disk can be initiated and held in a stable spin then maybe there is something new here that has some ramifications in the design and use of electric motors.

IMHO, we have come a really long way in understanding and harnessing energy around us. We have science and technologies that produce amazing results and no doubt someone of great scientific accomplishments and knowledge of say 100 years ago would be amazed with what we have today. There were learned minds back a few centuries ago who were convinced that the earth was flat. We can scoff at their ignorance today. SHould mankind survive a few more centuries, I have no doubt a future scientist or layman for that matter could look back at us today and what we take as fact and scoff just as we do at the flat earth notion. We know a lot more than previous generations but we make the same error when we think we know most of what there is to know. A mere glimpse of quantum physics is enough to convince me that we don't know squat!

Is it inconceivable that we could some how tap into an energy source from a parallel universe and indeed have a "classic" perpetual motion device, relative to our universe? If we can suck photons out of a parallel universe (I believe this has been speculated to have occurred) and put them to work through conversion to say electric energy we might be well on the way provided that other universe doesn't try to bill us or reciprocate in kind!

As Josey states, we have abundant energy available to us now and it is just a question of harnessing it. As he has also stated, we need to improve on efficiencies as much as possible too because any wasted energy is waste and often in a form that is harmful and damaging in its own right.

We're pretty good at handling certain forms of energy and using them to accomplish "work". Such forms are heat, electricity and more of late, light. We have also used magnetism for a long time in electric motors but I suspect that magnetic fields have potential that we have yet to realize and tap. This Mylow Motor, hoax or not, makes me at least question whether we do "know it all" and my suspicion is no.

If you have a magnet on the end of a push rod and another magnet hanging above it with the fields aligned in attraction, I see this hanging magnet above lifting the one on the rod to its full limit. Now if the environment were to tilt and the hanging magnet swing away, the one on the rod would drop down because of gravity and then lift back up as the hanging magnet swung again over it. What if the environment were tilted back and forth by virtue of being something moored and floating on the ocean with waves going underneath? An EV with its regenerative braking system left on the deck of a freighter might roll first one way and then the other, generating electricity in the process. This goofy exercise was brought to mind by the comment about harnessing gravity. As with Josey's example of the tides where the moon alters the state of mass also being managed by the earth's gravity, ocean waves can also be used to swing the pendulum as it were. For that matter, a pendulum with a geared axis could also be used to generate energy if it were housed in a system that was kept in motion by the ocean.

A loose cannon on deck is considered a very potential source of destruction and this without anyone lifting a finger or applying energy to it. What if we had something else loose on deck that generated energy for us and was kept from crashing and causing damage?

I know, maybe I am a loose cannon.....

[idleprocess]

Originally Posted by TedTheLed

"every person takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

Cute phrase. Trouble is that philosophers are less thorough and rigorous in the development of philosophy with logic alone than scientists are hashing out the mechanics of the universe through meticulous trial and error in an attempt to achieve repeatability and working models.

Feel free to harness some free energy or build a perpetual motion device. It could be endlessly lucrative for anyone that succeeds, assuming the oil companies don't have you disappeared.

[idleprocess]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

If the demonstrated motor is in fact just a hoax and not what it is being reported to be then shame on those jerks. If on the other hand, permanent magnets can be arranged in such a fashion that a disk can be initiated and held in a stable spin then maybe there is something new here that has some ramifications in the design and use of electric motors.

A permanent magnet's magnetic field is constant. If a magnet accelerates another magnet (or other ferrous material) towards it - even one in motion - it will also decelerate it once it begins to move away. A permanent magnet cannot be conveniently switched off without expending nontrivial amounts of energy to de-magnetize it; in a motor, you obviously want it to de- and re-magnetize frequently and in very short periods of time so that you can impart one-way motion on the driven element.

Remember discovering repulsion between like poles of a magnet and wondering why that effect wasn't being utilized for magnetic levitation or perpetual motion? Turns out that even in a vacuum, magnetic fields impart slight amounts of friction. It was only recently that magnetic-levitation bearings became practical - and their chief advantage over conventional bearings is longer service life rather than a huge decrease in friction.

A constant force can't be used to generate energy on its own because once it's acted upon something, the overall energy state has been reduced to. There are workarounds where some other phenomenon overcomes the constant, but they're time-consuming, indirect, and generally take more energy than the process itself generates (gravity makes hydroelectric dams work; the water cycle moves water back uphill).

I don't claim to understand how the Mylow Motor is supposed to work. The bit of the one video I saw convinced me that the guy pitching it either doesn't understand either, has some weird notions about the mechanics at work, or is wittingly pulling off a hoax. I believe that at best, he will replicate the results of a spinning platter with no magnets ... sort of like all the hair-brained schemes I've heard about "infinite range" EV's (some nonsense involving two battery banks and an alternator to recharge the banks) or putting a wind-driven impeller on a car - at best they will recover nearly 100% of the additional losses they impose on the system. I will spot you that there could be some bizarre, uhm, "interleave" of the magnetic fields that might do some very slight something that slightly alters the fields in some unusual way ... but I doubt it would produce a measurable effect.

[McGizmo]

Idle,
I understand your points and suspect that the only way this motor could work is if something is "switched" or altered for some reason or some type of a harmonic is initiated for want of a better term.

[jtr1962]

If it really works (and that's a big stretch), then perhaps it's simply taking advantage of some other energy source. Maybe it's drawing energy from the Earth's magnetic field, or perhaps it's initiating cold fusion on a very small scale. Regardless, if it works, it's doing so without violating the laws of physics. It's getting energy from somewhere, even if we can't yet identify the source.

Now what puzzles me about this device and similar ones is why do they never allow the device to be examined by an unbiased panel of experts. And why do those who don't care about money, who just want to "save the world", not simply publish the plans on the Internet? Doing so would go right past all the oil companies and others who are supposedly trying to "stop them". Others would take the plans, build the device. If it really worked soon you would have millions of copies in nearly every house and car in the world. End of story for big oil. Not a thing they could do to stop it once the plans were made public. But the inventors always seem to want to put their invention under tight wraps. Perhaps because the inventions don't work as claimed, and what they're really after are their 15 minutes of fame. Me, I would just publish the plans anonomously in a few places, with a links to them in forums I frequent (where I would claim I found them while surfing), and let them spread via cyberspace. I couldn't care less about getting famous. In fact, I'd prefer to remain anonymous. And the history books would show some unknown person "saved the world". I don't need my ego massaged like a lot of these prima donna "inventors" seem to.

I tend to think a lot of the makers of these machines lack the ability to do controlled experiments. They think they have a perpetual motion machine when they don't. A flaw in their methods leads them to this conclusion. Here's a great example. I recently built a batch of LED drivers for a customer. It is a buck driver for the automotive market. I decided to measure efficiency driving 1, 2, and 3 LEDs. The (apparent) results were 91%, 96%, and 101%, respectively. Did I just discover a perpetual motion machine (that's what 101% efficiency would indicate on the face of it). No. Rather, because I simply measured volts in, current in, volts out, current out with a simple multimeter I couldn't account for possibly complex waveforms. The driver still gets slightly warm driving 3 LEDs which tells me there's waste heat (and less than 100% efficiency). If it really were >100% efficiency it would be getting colder. The real efficiency number is probably closer to 97% but my inability to accurately measure the parameters with the tools I have meant an erroneous result of 101%. I'd guess the same thing for ALL of these "revolutionary power sources".

[Darell]

Originally Posted by jtr1962

Now what puzzles me about this device and similar ones is why do they never allow the device to be examined by an unbiased panel of experts. And why do those who don't care about money, who just want to "save the world", not simply publish the plans on the Internet? Doing so would go right past all the oil companies and others who are supposedly trying to "stop them". Others would take the plans, build the device.

Yes. That was my point early on. And this is how ALL of these devices go - without exception. We can leave all other discussion alone because it comes down to this. Why are none of these devices ever commercialized?

[Darell]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

Darell,
Your quotes there got me a bit confused.

You mean on "new" energy sources? That's because it all depends on the definition of new. and even "energy source" I guess. Some people believe that hydrogen is an energy source. When was the last time that we discovered a new source of energy? And by what definition?

And finally - when we talk about rolling regenerating EVs (or cannon, etc) on a rocking deck - none of this is perpetual motion. It is using wave energy - a source of energy that is external to the system. A source of energy that we can tap in many ways. A source of energy that is HUGE and tears up all kinds of natural and man-made stuff. The magnet motor shown in the video claims to get all the energy it needs in its closed system. And that's the definition of a perpetual motion machine. A rocking boat is not a closed system.

No, we don't know everything. But I'm confident that our collective knowledge knows more than the guy on YouTube.

[McGizmo]

JTR,
I agree if this thing isn't a hoax that there is energy coming from somewhere and there was a comment at some point about a magnet getting cold as well as loosing its power; indicators to me of some form of energy depletion.

Darell,
Yes, I understand the conventional definition of a perpetual motion device as based on a closed system and how this is simply contrary to physics. I don't recall in my short pursuit of looking into the Mylow Motor any claims of perpetual motion and if they were or are hanging their hat on that then I do call BS along with the rest of you. I also realize and completely understand that my examples of using gravity and ocean waves is not a case of perpetual motion and I never claimed it to be the case. It was a tangent brought to mind by Josey's comments on the use of gravity which by the way is not a perpetual source either, as I understand it.

Also in my defense, I admit that I have not viewed much on You Tube and I didn't realize that this is just one of many claimed perpetual motion devices being showed.

I guess I am just too simple minded to understand why someone would make a video showing a device they made and make false claims about it. Listening to Mylow on the couple videos I watched, he strikes me as an inarticulate and nor very knowledgeable person who I would expect has no real understanding of what it is he has constructed or how it works nor does he strike me as someone clever in trying to con someone into I don't know what. Perhaps he just does seek his 15 minutes of fame.

Perhaps I should retitle this thread as "Don falls victim of a new form (to him) of scam"

Certainly magnets are sold for all kinds of wonder treatments and claims of health improvement that fly in the face of western medicine as well as international science. Of course there are those who claim that simple needles can alter energy flow in the human body too and although personal experience may support this contention, science doesn't.

An open mind can be the receptacle of unwanted and unappreciated "gifts". Such is life.

[McGizmo]

Originally Posted by Darell

..... The magnet motor shown in the video claims to get all the energy it needs in its closed system. .....

I missed this outright claim. I was under the impression that no one knows how this motor works or why it can obtain a steady state of rotation. I took there to be a claim that there is no hidden or additional source of energy that is acting on the device and hidden by intent. I came away from my initial viewing with the idea that Mylow and the others hosting these videos are essentially asking what is going on here and not making any claims of understanding or statements of proposed utility. Perhaps we all filter content and context to some extent based on our own preconceptions and assumptions; at least I may have.

Just some more thoughts...

Could magnetic fields and the energy created and used to accomplish work via them be considered a form of nuclear or atomic energy? It seems to this simpleton that this energy is at the atomic level and could qualify as such. Granted, by convention, we think of atomic and nuclear energy as being related to the change or decay of atomic structure and the energy released in this process but surely other forms of energy we are familiar with are also based on atomic or sub atomic particles? Electrons and photons are sub atomic particles, yes?

To use an analogy, assuming that this Mylow motor is nothing more or less than what it is reported to be by Mylow, my suspicion is that this thing may be no different than say a perpetual light device which isn't perpetual but seemingly so in a short viewing span. Consider the tritium vials most of us are familiar with. With a half life of 12 years, we would have to watch one of these vials for a reasonable time period and measure its light output to realize that it is in fact not a perpetual source of light. To the casual observer with no understanding of the vial though, one might question if it is in fact not something magic and perhaps even perpetual in the sense that there is no obvious outside source of energy and clearly the vial is a closed system.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

Darell,
Yes, I understand the conventional definition of a perpetual motion device as based on a closed system and how this is simply contrary to physics. I don't recall in my short pursuit of looking into the Mylow Motor any claims of perpetual motion and if they were or are hanging their hat on that then I do call BS along with the rest of you.

Typically, those who demonstrate these devices (never to the public in a scientific way - usually just on YouTube) take great steps to point out how their machine is NOT perpetual motion. Because that's impossible, of course. So I don't think he has claimed that - I'm just calling it what it is.

[quote}Also in my defense, I admit that I have not viewed much on You Tube and I didn't realize that this is just one of many claimed perpetual motion devices being showed.[/quote]
You need to set aside a few weeks to book up on this stuff! Thousands upon thousands of these videos exist. And if each one makes you think as much as this magnet one, then you're in for some serious headaches. Here is a list about 1,600 videos just of the ones that actually claim to be "over unity" or perpetual motion. (some, like the first one, poke fun at the idea).
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...al+motion&aq=f

If you didn't watch this one, please do! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvRzWYCZ2e0

I guess I am just too simple minded to understand why someone would make a video showing a device they made and make false claims about it.

Just check your spam folder for similar waste of time and resources.

An open mind can be the receptacle of unwanted and unappreciated "gifts". Such is life.

I so want to have a more open mind. Really I do. The problem is that unlike you, I'm innundated with this kind of thing all the time. Folks find my email address on the various EV boards, or on my EVnut site, and send me all these great ideas of adding windmills to EVs or adding generators on the wheels so that I can charge WHILE I'm driving instead of just when I'm slowing down. One guy wants to add generators to the shock absorbers of EVs, claiming that the car will never need to be recharged. I get it morning noon and night. And if I tried to keep an open mind on all this, my mind would have leaked out onto my keyboard long ago.

[josey]

The issue of perpetual motion is irrelevant because we all know it's impossible. The question is whether the we can get large amounts of power from the earth's electromagnetic field. Certainly there is power there. Look at the magnetic storms on the sun and how much energy they generate.

It seems the big problem in harnessing the power of the earth's electromagnetic field is its relatively stable nature. If it switched on and off or eversed on a regular basis, we would have power aplenty to tap.

It also seems fair to say that we don't know if we can use the earth's magnetic field as a power source.

I did find this interesting read on a website:


Some free-energy enthusiasts claim that the Earth's magnetic field could be used to generate power[4], but such claims are regarded as pseudoscience by many skeptics. Many designs for using the Earth's electromagnetic field and atmospheric electricity have been researched, but have failed to gain any widespread acknowledgement in the scientific community. There is also some energy stored in the form of separated electrical charges, which can provide low direct currents at high voltages. However, ordinary electric motors cannot use this energy directly as a prime mover. Benjamin Franklin developed several motors that used the Earth's fields. Oleg D. Jefimenko has researched several machine designs for tapping the Earth's electromagnetic field.

The Earth's magnetic field can be used as the starting field for a self-excited electric generator. Cromwell Varley discovered in 1867 that an electric generator did not need to be started with a conventional prime mover. He used the Earth's magnetic field to induce enough field strength in the stator windings to get a generator running.

Electrodynamic tethers can induce a current by moving through the planet's magnetic field. When the conductive tether is trailed in a planetary or solar magnetosphere (magnetic field), the tether cuts the field, generates a current, and thereby slows the spacecraft into a lower orbit. The tether's end can be left bare, and this is sufficient to make contact with the ionosphere and allow a current to flow through a phantom loop. A cathode tube may also be placed at the end of the tether. The cathode tube will interact with the planet's magnetic field in the vacuum of space. A double-ended cathode tube tether will allow alternating currents.

[McGizmo]

Darell,
Thanks for the one link on the cat and jelly. Great job!

I had no idea that this perpetual motion garbage was itself another spam form on YouTube and no, I have no intention of delving further into it.

However, I believe perpetual motion is possible though I certainly couldn't demonstrate my proposal. I believe an object or particle in motion as it nears a black hole can be attributed to perpetual motion in a relative frame of reference as time itself stops.

As for the spammers and hoaxters out there, perhaps we could send them all to visit just such a black hole and rid our planet of unnecessary noise and burdens on our limited resources; a win-win in my book!

[McGizmo]

Originally Posted by josey

....

It seems the big problem in harnessing the power of the earth's electromagnetic field is its relatively stable nature. ....

As I think I already mentioned, I saw a science program recently that commented on the fact that although the electromagnet field is relatively stable, the poles have reversed in the past and some scientists are convinced that we are headed towards another reversal in the not to distant future.

[Darell]

The one thing we know for certain is that there is PLENTY of renewable "free" energy out there. We tap a tiny bit of it with solar panels and wind turbines today. If we really want energy solutions - and we were comitted to developing them -no physical laws have to be broken to turn our energy situation around. If we were to put as much money and effort into renewables as we put into oil and, oh, let's throw war in there... we'd be set. But our priorities don't seem to be arranged that way.

That's just my long way of saying that we don't need perpetual motion to save us from ourselves. We just need to develop and expand on what we already know works. We have the technology, and apparently we can print as much money as we need. All we lack is the priority, the policy and the will. If we do start down the road of seriously developing clean, safe, renewable power - from there, more exciting and interesting things will blossom.

But in the meantime, if somebody truly DOES have an over-unity machine, then (yes I'm saying it again) it should be considered a criminal act to not develop it. Sticking a bunch of magnets on a spinning platter, staring in wonder and asking how it works isn't helping anybody. I wonder just how much of our collective productivity has been wasted just by the few of us here on the thread discussing it!

[McGizmo]

Originally Posted by Darell

..... Sticking a bunch of magnets on a spinning platter, staring in wonder and asking how it works isn't helping anybody. I wonder just how much of our collective productivity has been wasted just by the few of us here on the thread discussing it!

By all means, don't waste any more of your precious time on this! For some people who don't know, staring in wonder and asking how something might work could possibly lead to some new discoveries; at least for them.

I don't dispute that such pondering is non productive. Frankly, until we control our population size, our consumption of limited resources and growth of our infrastructure and "presence", I hope we do have limitations on energy that would allow us to accomplish such activities! "Staring in wonder" has much less impact than productive activities of many forms.

I make these comments not inferring that you or anyone would necessarily disagree with them. I think most of us agree that we need to develope alternative forms of energy that will have less detrimental impact on our environment. We do need to take care that any free or clean energy is not used in any unecessary expansion or further productivity that in itself puts additional strain on limited resources.

By all means, put a fork in this thread and I apologize to the rest of you for letting my ignorance of such matters bring me to start a thread of such dubious value.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

By all means, don't waste any more of your precious time on this! For some people who don't know, staring in wonder and asking how something might work could possibly lead to some new discoveries; at least for them.

OK, I asked for that. Don't go putting stuff into perspective. That just makes me look bad.

Wondering why things work is great. And has resulted in every discovery man has ever made, I suppose. Hell, wondering how things work is probably my biggest hobby.

I'm having difficulty putting into words what I really mean. I think you already know, but every time I try to say it, it comes out sounding like, "we already know everything." or "There's nothing new to discover!" And none of that is true, or course.

Let me try one more time:
There is room to wonder about everything. There is likely more that we don't know than we do know. And because I see so many of these types of claims - and have for so many years - I don't have the time or even the desire to sit and wonder about each one of these "free energy" machines. If one were ever shown to actually work, then I'd maybe wake up a bit. The person making the claim is responsible for proving the thing works - and that means something beyond making a YouTube video. If it truly does work and nobody ever does anything with it - then we've gained nothing. And so far - after too many claims to count - not one of these has ever amounted to anything. If any of these things truly did work (demonstrated in a scientific way) then would the "inventor" of the thing really be wasting his time defending his YouTube videos? Or would he maybe be selling the thing for billions?

We could be discussing untold thousands of these free energy machines that have been "invented" and demonstrated, and never NEVER actually put into use. Not once. Ever. I'm not sure how you stumbled on this one magnet wheel - there are countless iterations of various magnet engines. But I don't see how it is any different than the thousands that came before it. Same claims, and the same eventual result. Nada.

I actually *like* that we're discussing the concept of free energy machines. What I don't need (personally) is to waste any time discussing one specific device over any of the others. Where would we start? And why would we start there? My favorites are the ones that - like an Escher drawing - pump water uphill from the power of a water wheel that is powered in return by that same water falling on the wheel.

Bahh. I feel like I'm typing in circles again. I'm not sure why I feel so illiterate on this thread. Mabe the subject just drains my intellect.

Somebody poke me when we have a self-powered flashlight!

[josey]

I do not argue with anyone above, but I'll say:

I have a free-energy machine sitting on my wood-burning stove. When the stove heats up, the fan starts spinning like mad, gently blowing warm air to distant parts of my cabin. OK, in a 500-square-foot cabin, nothing is too distant, but it still works. It makes its own electricity from the temperature difference in its feet and cooling fins, both of which are connected to variously doped semiconductors. It works like a solar panel.

Sure, you can get technical on me and say the energy comes from the burning wood, but for practical purposes, the energy is free and it makes my cabin uniformly warmer, even while burning less wood.

We can do the same thing with thermoelectric generators that convert waste heat in hybrid car exhaust into electricity that can be used to propel the car. The same technology can be used in propane wall heaters.

In Hawaii, where there is a great difference in surface sea temperatures and deep-sea temperatures, we can get free electricity from exploiting the difference.

Geothermal is free electricity. It won't run out in any time meaningful to people. California gets more geothermal power than solar power, although maybe not for long.

Solar power is free power. Yes, it will end, but not in any time frame I'm worried about.

This guy may not be demonstrating free power, but free power is abundant and is something we should be focused on.

And obviously, this is cool stuff to talk about.

[Darell]

I'm going to at least pretend that you've mostly restated one of my points.

We need to put effort into the *real* free sources of energy - where we have a chance of doing some good. Perpetual motion machines compared to capturing earth's abundant energy resources is at least mildly similar to comparing fuel cell cars to EVs. Fuel cells could maybe be better in some ways at some cost at some undetermined future time. EVs are here now. We know what they can do, how durable they are, and what they cost. We have almost unlimited ways to create and distribute fuel for them. They can help us today without inventing anything new... if we just collectively decide that we'd like to change our energy profile a bit!

Show of hands? Who is surprised that I brought this around to EVs?

[McGizmo]

If EV's are so great, why can't I buy one!

By the way, I do feel you guys did answer my question posed in the title here.

[Darell]

Originally Posted by McGizmo

If EV's are so great, why can't I buy one!

Indeed. And trust me, I do hear that coming back at me whenever I say, "if it really worked, it would be developed." Because of course there are many people who feel that EVs MUST suck... or the car companies would have been building them all these years. But no matter what anybody else might read or believe, at least I know the reality on that one! And every day I drive my EV with the confidence that I'm consuming more energy than I'm creating. Fortunately, the energy I consume comes almost directly from the sun.

By the way, I do feel you guys did answer my question posed in the title here.

Crap. We were on topic?